If there were no heaven....

OneAccord · #1 12-29-2010, 06:07 PM

...promised to us in the Bible. If the Bible never mentioned hell. If God never promised walls of Jasper, gates of pearl or a street of Gold. If the Bible never mentioned a lake of fire or "hellfire and damnation". If at the end of this life there was nothing but death. No afterlife. None.

If... Would we still serve God if there was no heaven to gain? Would ywe live like the devil if there was no hell to shun?

Are we following Him for the loaves and fishes He gives? Do we follow Him for His promises, or out of sheer love for His gift of salvation provided for us at Calvary?

Are we just followers of Jesus, or are we really His disciples?

Just musing...

Apprehended · #2 12-29-2010, 06:30 PM

If there was no heaven, of course, there would be no hell since the two are in equilibrium to each other.

If there were no heaven:

There would be no God, thus no creator.

If no creator, there would be nothing...not even an earth.

If there were no God, no heaven, no creator, no earth...

there would be no life.

If there was no life, most of you all would miss the re-runs of Sopranos and American Idol. Neither would you learn what the NFL will do with Bret Farve. NOW THAT IS REALLY BAD.

ILG · #3 12-29-2010, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord

...promised to us in the Bible. If the Bible never mentioned hell. If God never promised walls of Jasper, gates of pearl or a street of Gold. If the Bible never mentioned a lake of fire or "hellfire and damnation". If at the end of this life there was nothing but death. No afterlife. None.

If... Would we still serve God if there was no heaven to gain? Would ywe live like the devil if there was no hell to shun?

Are we following Him for the loaves and fishes He gives? Do we follow Him for His promises, or out of sheer love for His gift of salvation provided for us at Calvary?

Are we just followers of Jesus, or are we really His disciples?

Just musing...

Well, having left the church and opened my mind to all sorts of thoughts, I have had thoughts like these.

Bottom line: I live the way I live because I love the people I am with. I feel I love God, but I am not really sure what that means anyway.

Digging4Truth · #4 12-29-2010, 08:01 PM

I cannot say that I would be where I am now because I know that much of the journey God has taken me on was spent living out of fear. So fear helped get me where I am. But I have moved beyond that and the life I live now is because of my relationship with God.

I live what I love and love what I live.

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

ILG · #5 12-29-2010, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

I cannot say that I would be where I am now because I know that much of the journey God has taken me on was spent living out of fear. So fear helped get me where I am. But I have moved beyond that and the life I live now is because of my relationship with God.

I live what I love and love what I live.

I live things that I don't think send people to hell and, to tell you the truth, I am currently not real sure about our concept of hell.

So... I would live for him like I live for him now. But I don't know if I could have gotten here without beginning in fear and learning to love Him for his wisdom and my love for his excellent ways.

I was thinking along the lines of the question you pose today. I have seen people live and preach standards of modesty and holiness. And then when they got out of a church that preached these things all went out the door.

I have seen people live and preach against the holidays but as soon as they were out of a church that preached it these things went out the door. I think they were convinced that these were their personal convictions but an opportunity to circumvent them proved otherwise.

I would love to think hell as it is taught is just something people thought up.

I loved living the way I did, until one day I realized all the pain and heartache it caused myself, my family and others. I felt that to continue to live that way would be, for me, to live selfishly, knowing that modesty and many of the other things I was taught could be lived better in another way, especially since we were all in agreement in my household. And so, I left to live my life in what I felt was a better, more compassionate way. I am much happier for it. Sometimes, I yearn for the old stuff but the sickness I feel about all the judgmentalism, condemnation and guilt put on people makes me stay here and live free and demonstrate freedom for others who might actually criticize me while I do it. But I feel clean and good before God.

Hoovie · #6 12-29-2010, 08:45 PM

The search for the "Unknown God" continues...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg

A.W. Bowman · #7 12-29-2010, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord

...promised to us in the Bible. If the Bible never mentioned hell. If God never promised walls of Jasper, gates of pearl or a street of Gold. If the Bible never mentioned a lake of fire or "hellfire and damnation". If at the end of this life there was nothing but death. No afterlife. None.

If... Would we still serve God if there was no heaven to gain? Would we live like the devil if there was no hell to shun?

Are we following Him for the loaves and fishes He gives? Do we follow Him for His promises, or out of sheer love for His gift of salvation provided for us at Calvary?

Are we just followers of Jesus, or are we really His disciples?

Just musing...

I love it! Thank you!

God is. Jesus is His anointed one, because none of the rest of us measure up. Everything else is commentary, so go study.

As Job once said, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." (Job 13:15, KJV)

Then the question remains, "Are we believers, who seek after Christ until He stops providing for our wants and needs, are we followers of Him until the the price gets a little high and persecution comes knocking at our door, or are we disciples who will give that last measure of love for the sake of His testament?"

I love this:
Lord Jesus, I am going to obey You and love You and serve You, and do what You want me to do as long as I live, even if I go to hell at the end of the road, simply because You are worthy to be loved, obeyed and served. And, I am not trying to make a deal with You.

It is the difference between trying to get something out of God (humanism), rather than allowing God to get something out of me (consecrated life). The prime product of my relationship with God is solely for His glory. The byproduct of that relationship is the blessing(s) I receive in return. But, what if I should not receive any blessings in this life, like so many of the early Christan martyrs? Have I then been cheated out of my reward by God? No! For I am not the one who is worthy.

God does not exist for my happiness and well being, but rather it is I who exist for God's own good pleasure and purpose.

Does anyone see the difference?

Digging4Truth · #8 12-29-2010, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoovie

The search for the "Unknown God" continues...

Could you elucidate on your meaning here?

Digging4Truth · #9 12-29-2010, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILG

I would love to think hell as it is taught is just something people thought up.

I loved living the way I did, until one day I realized all the pain and heartache it caused myself, my family and others. I felt that to continue to live that way would be, for me, to live selfishly, knowing that modesty and many of the other things I was taught could be lived better in another way, especially since we were all in agreement in my household. And so, I left to live my life in what I felt was a better, more compassionate way. I am much happier for it. Sometimes, I yearn for the old stuff but the sickness I feel about all the judgmentalism, condemnation and guilt put on people makes me stay here and live free and demonstrate freedom for others who might actually criticize me while I do it. But I feel clean and good before God.

Indeed. I used to speed and race the engine on my car. And then I discovered a law at work. A law that says these things cost and take from me. Whether in tickets or in repairs or complete replacement of vehicles there is a law that I am fighting against and I always lose.

The same goes for every other law of God. It is no more... do it this way or you'll be punished... but it is an understanding that living one way only continues to bring destruction and loss into my life. Living God's way only brings peace into my life and steers me away from the pitfalls of my fallen nature that only desires to take from me.

As HaShaliach said... Does anyone see the difference.

Yes... there is a vast difference.

He was my judge.

He is now my redeemer.

Not only because he paid the price on calvary. But also because he redeems me from my own fallen state. Thank you Lord for making me free from a self serving and yet self destructive way and teaching me a way higher than I could have known on my own.

Hoovie · #10 12-29-2010, 10:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digging4Truth

Could you elucidate on your meaning here?

Well Lennon asked a similar question didn't he?

Now I know OA was just "musing" but if I imagine no heaven, hell etc, than I also bring into question whether Jesus loves me or died for me. I know it's true because He declares it so, not because I have a warm emotional attachment to Jesus.

Would i give my life for Jesus if there were no afterlife to enjoy his presence in? That is a most difficult question, because it changes the meaning of the cross as well... "Should not perish but have everlasting life"