Discrepancy in Church Practice

[donfriesen1]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

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Part 1/3.

Like the fool who must defend himself, the guy who wants to deliver the package also does. The big dog barks, all the other dogs join in, and they scare off the deliverer.

The one ring show wants to run in shame when the three ring circus sets up their big tent.

Some Christians have great abilities to gather and retain info. They will sit like an elephant on the ant to smother the message the ant was given. But elephants do not necessarily a Bible interpreter make.

While Dom is agreed with, when saying that Ro14 is about weak/strong saints and their views, this then shows that it comes from surface reading. But Dom fails to address the reading between the lines methods which Paul and Jesus used to interpret scripture. You do know how to read between the lines, don't you Dom?

Dom addresses surface reading and struts about proclaiming 'I've won'. But readers will note that he has not addressed the points made from reading between the lines, to show them wrong. Those doing so demonstrate incomplete understandings of interpretive methods, which sitting on the ant is trying to compensate for.

The one ring show keeps repeating the same act and the elephant repeats the methodology which has worked in the past, sitting on the little guy.

The one-ring show has learnt that repetition works. Truth cannot be defeated because God is truth. But plz Dom, show the reasoning behind the claim of post 1 wrong, if you can. Then you will have demonstrated the ability to use that which the elephant does not use in surface reading ability.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
Dom again, does not aim at disproving my Ro14 conclusions.

Don, I already disproved your idea of what Romans 14 is saying. What you have shown, Dom, is what surface reading of Ro14 shows. It is good to do so. You have yet to disprove the means I have used, to show how my conclusions are wrong. But, plz do continue to say it like you say it. It may then be that you will even convince yourself that it is really true. You believe YOU are weaker brother, because you hold the 3rd view of head-coverings, outside of Pastor Doe's view, and the UPCI view. So, Pastor Doe is a strong brother? You are the weaker brother? But Pastor Doe is supposed to hand over the pulpit to you? Sorry, but in the real world that's not happening. In your world of make believe you see yourself as an ecclesiastical Gandalf, and every other minister as a Hobbit. What chapter are these Gandalf and Hobbit found? Oh, right. These are fictional, just like your fictional 'disproving' of my conclusions. When you come back to reality, then we'll wait to see your real talents finally put to use. But, pray tell, why have you not yet used these talents which you actually have, and have not yet disproven the means I use to provide a conclusion of Ro14? Romans 14 is speaking of elder brethren not arguing about differences with NEW CONVERTS. To allow the NEW CONVERTS to grow, and not be discouraged. This doesn't fit your case. Sorry, but no matter how many long and lengthy posts to bang out you are still wrong. Plz, detail this, so I will know what you talk about.

I have said that no one should disagree with your weak/strong view, that all others should also look deeper, with a between the lines reading of Ro14, to discover deeper truths which God's Word often shows deeper. But not Dom. He seemingly does not have these abilities in spite of the vast knowledge he holds of both scripture and the world. I feel like an ant when beside this knowledge. Do you wish all to believe you have not yet learned about reading between the lines?

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
Dom below, mostly avoids commenting on the main reason for this thread.

Oh, but I have, you just didn't like my answer. But that's just too bad. Deal with it. Perhaps my review of Dom's posts should be given, to produce the verity that this claim of his is not factual.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
Perhaps Dom is calling me a trouble maker, making this to be in line with his opening tone.

Don, at this point I don't even believe you are currently in a church. You are your own worst enemy. But, as I posted before, if we have something to say that is a proper way to be heard. If the leadership of the congregation doesn't want to hear it, then you are kicking a dead horse. So, to keep trying to instigate a parley when the leadership refuses to deal with you doesn't help further your case. You are actually becoming a nuisance, also known as a troublemaker. Therefore being a pain in someone's side isn't winning any friends, and inevitably destroying any chance of being heard. But, obviously you don't care. Because you are ecclesiastically delusional. So, even if Paul preached and David played his harp you still want to have the preeminence. And Dom again diverts to topics which do not address the main reason of the thread, Ro14. Why Dom? When you have so much talent? Plz show wrong the reasoning used to present my conclusions. You keep saying you have done so. You repeat everything else but do not repeat the part which shows that you have.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
And what of those who earnestly contend for the faith? Are they trouble makers by your definition, Dom?

What of those who earnestly contend for the faith? Jude was dealing with an attack from outside the Body of Christ. Individuals coming into the congregation trying to teach Antinomianism! But I already posted all that! Yes, I agree we both, you and I, both gave comments to it. But you are too blinded by your religious self importance, to even addressed what I posted already. If we are to apply you to the writer of Jude, you would be labeled as the one the saints are to contend against. Errr, are you saying I haven't responded to what you've said? Errr, who will believe you when you say I do not reply to what you have said. No one reading these posts will agree. But then, enlighten us all by quoting what I said in error, and telling all readers how it was wrong, if you dare. Of course, reader, Dom will not do so because what I have written makes too much sense to Bible readers. So, don't hold your breath to hear back from Dom with quotes of my words. What he has written in this post is bluster. Check posts 19 and 36.

Part 2/3 to follow.

[donfriesen1]

Part2/3

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
Or instead, are they trying to be obedient to the Word?

Either you are a raving mad, or just trolling the forum. Have you ever been leadership in a congregation? Would you allow someone to claim that they were being obedient to the Word, if you knew beyond a shadow of doubt that they were scripturally incorrect? Take for instance if a brother believed, and taught that Mary the mother of Jesus was a "Co-Redemptrix" concerning soteriology? Would you allow it to propagate through your church family? Saying that the brother was covered by Romans 14? No. But now you're actually going in the right direction, Dom. Kudos to you. Here you are actually tackling my conclusions in attempts to disprove the reasons why my conclusions are wrong. You go boy! Keep going in this direction. I've been waiting long time for this. See if my reasonings are faulty and lay it out for us all to see. Stop the nonsense you usually provide when deriding my character instead of deriding my views. Would you classify him as contending for the faith? Being obedient to the Word? I'm going back to my original thoughts concerning you. You are all alone buddy, you and Pastor Doe parted ways long long ago.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
A trouble maker is one from the heart. It is their nature to do so, regardless of the time or circumstance. Wherever they go, it will come through to the surface because that is what they are.

Are you describing yourself Don? Don, the above is you. In your heart you are the gatekeeper. You are totally convinced that you are the head of the body. So, if you show up in a congregation right away the first thing you see isn't all the nice people ready to welcome you. You see everything YOU need to correct. Funny that. You say I see everything wrong in church. But yet, here I am - writing only about one thing - Ro14 - and not about the 'everything wrong' you say I see. That I resist your baiting, to change the topics of discussion, shows I do not wish to talk about every wrong. Funny that. This shows you wrong. If I would rant and rave about everything wrong at church you might hear of it here in my AFF writings. But yet you don't, do you Dom? You don't because it is a figment of your imagination. You make stuff up about me and tell it here like as if it is truth, don't you Dom? The elders and the pastor God bless them is my constant prayer, but I don't bless any who distort the interpretation of scripture. I leave that up to you because you do enough for both of us.

no matter how long they've been chopping wood in that church, have been doing it wrong. Yet, they may be wrong, but you know what Don? You're not the one who can correct them. Because you aren't a good listener. How many times have I posted an answer to your questions concerning Romans and Jude? Therefore you and the preacher both have been doing it wrong, yet you will accomplish absolutely zero. Then inevitably they will give you the left boot of fellowship right in your back pockets out the door. Why? Because they were there first. That's their building, their platform, their pews, and their pulpit. Ground control to Major Tom? You will be contending for the faith far far away from that church family. You can only blame yourself. The last time I checked, I saw that the church was a body of believers. Every part must take its proper functioning place. God has no place for big dogs who take the credit when they say 'this is my church, my building, my platform, my pews'. If I am a singular macrophage cell who has discovered poison in the blood stream, and want to point it out to the rest of the body, then I do the job which God created the macrophage for. If I don't do it, I show I have no purpose and the designer of the body will arrange to remove it.



What does Dom have as a definition of trouble maker? Do you Dom describe Jude as one instigating trouble?

Don, you aren't Jude.

What kind of attitude are you propagating here, when saying 'Pastor Doe does not need B Smith.' ? This attitude sucks, Dom.

No, the attitude is proper. Because it wasn't Pastor Doe who bounced B. Smith out on his head. It was B. Smith. He was the one who came out of left field, wanting to have a word-serving position. The Bible states in Proverbs 18:16 your gift will make room for you. Therefore if you have the message everyone will know. My boy, you certainly don't have the message. Not by a long shot. Therefore Pastor Doe, and the elders don't have to leave the rest of the flock to babysit some self aggrandizing individual, who sees what he believes as the most important. That Alexander the coppersmith has done me much harm, does not demonstrate the gift Paul had was making room for Paul. That Daniel's prayer was hindered for three weeks does not show the gift he had made room for him. That David was brought to Saul by his gift does not mean the gift was not working when Saul tried to kill him. Your comparisons suck. This again demonstrates your incomplete interpretive abilities. I regret being so dramatic saying so, because I do not usually do so, but I feel compelled to when smothered.

Dom don't be ridiculous and say B Smith's righteous desires are negated by Pastor Doe's unscriptural actions. No one should say this. You did not learn this from the Bible.

Certainly Pr18.16 is true but it is misapplied by your efforts to discredit the reason for this thread. Ro14 should be practiced by all, including by Pastor Doe. Any correct desires B Smith has to share the Word should have been encouraged. If error is seen in B Smith then they should have been guided by correction, not the boot. You don't throw the baby out the house when they accidentally say a swear word while learning to talk. They are instructed in the right way. You didn't learn the way you describe from good godly preachers but from those preachers who desire to lord's of God's heritage. Wake up! Resist!

The message I hear from most pulpits is that everyone in the church is invaluable.

Then maybe you shouldn't of left those pulpits? All saints are precious in God's sight. Sadly, not everyone is a saint. Some are satans. Individuals who have no patience, who see themselves as God's gift to the Church, and that everyone should be listening to them. When they sit in the pew, their only thought is that if they were in the pulpit then the sheep would really be fed.
Jesus has His own timing but the big mistake is that some individuals couldn't care less what the Holy Ghost wants to do. Right Dom, absolutely right according to unbiblical thought. They told Paul through the Spirit not to go up to Jerusalem. Those prophets who told Paul that he shouldn't go to Jerusalem were wrong to do so, right Dom? What is revealed must be shared or it despises the Spirit. Those who receive from God must share what is revealed whether it is popular, or commonly known, or not. You again demonstrate weird interpretive abilities. Plz give us more, we who have been starved not having your kind of reasoning which is revealed here.

Sure some are actually satans, false brethren, but you have yet to demonstrate the reasoning used to present this thread, that it is of the devil. Is it because you don't have the ability the Spirit gives? Why the delay in proving it wrong when I've chided you much to do so. But go on, continue with presenting yourself as the big dog all should fear. You are gifted in this area and your gift has made room for you.

Part 3/3 to follow.

[donfriesen1]

Part 3/3

Dom, you are in effect cutting Ro14 out of the Bible.

You see pal, here is your big problem. You accuse me of disregarding the Bible? This is what you probably had done with Pastor John Doe. Yet, we aren't disregarding the Bible. I'm not, I already posted what Romans 14 meant. I believe I even repeated myself. I'm not cutting out anything but what you think Romans and Jude applies to. That's what you can't get through your thick head. But, that is something you may never ever remedy. Of course you've presented a good interpretation of Ro14. But, saying again what I have said before, what you present fails to demonstrate any error of reasoning I've presented in post 1. We are waiting for this, if you can produce.

It's good to be thick-headed about Biblical truth.

Instead of defending its correct conclusions and applying its teaching to Pastor Doe, you support Pastor Doe's non-Biblical actions by wishing B. Smith out the church.

Oh, so you were tossed out on your back pockets. OK. You are free, and he is free. A win win. But, sadly you haven't gotten over it. Defending the conclusion as Don sees the verses? That's your problem buddy, it's all about how you see it. You and Pastor John Doe must've had some hair pulling contest. A typical gladiator Bible study, filled with interruptions galore! But, you can't see where you missed it? Don, my only experience with you is here, your only experience with me is here. My personal opinion is that the congregation wasn't big enough for both of you hombres to be behind the pulpit. You couldn't get the guy to see your vision of you being in a word-serving position. Again, this issue wasn't about Romans 14. No way, absolutely no way. It was about you. Dom has brought forth things which aren't true, out of his imagination and into this paragraph. I like imagining things myself but prefer to imagine things based on reality. Dom again demonstrates distraction methods, not wanting to talk about the main point of this thread.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1
Where is your Apostolic love for Biblical Truth?

Don, don't flatter yourself. I hardly see you as Apostolic, let alone believe you love Biblical Truth. You just love Don, and what comes out of Don. Let's leave it at that. If only every Christian had the abilities Dom demonstrates here. Over great distances he can discern whether or not someone is Apostolic.


I'm getting bored dealing with your lengthy posts. So, I'll leave it here. Maybe I'll come back and finish the rest of your post. But, since I started this discussion with you I find you as well as myself repeating the same things. Which from reading everything you have ever posted, that is what you do. Don, you have no friends, you have no fellowship, for that I'm truly sorry. Is this relevant to the topic? No. Dom again demonstrates that he has nothing to say against the main topic, retreating to his favourite tactic, degradation of the individual whose views he doesn't prove wrong. Perhaps his position as the big dog is threatened by a 'one-ring show'. I'll pray for you. I hope you snap out of it. I really do. We are absolutely nothing and when we are dead people will forget we even existed. Jesus Christ is the only one we need to be focused on. Not a word-serving position, a pulpit, a platform, or a building. Whatever happened to you wasn't the pastor's fault, wasn't the organization's fault. It is only us, we do it to ourselves. I can't blame the butcher, the baker, or the candlestick maker. If you are in a congregation it is what it is, someone else started it, someone else is paying the light bills, and someone else is holding the keys to the front office. If you get an epiphany then hope to Jesus it's in the book. But even if it is in the book, everyone else just might not believe it. Lot's of good men have lost out beating their head against a wall, trying to get everyone on board with their revelation. Amen, Dom. You speak right. Jesus is everything, and nothing of the struggles of this life will matter a hill of beans when we get to the Other Side. But, you demonstrate apathy again, when telling us that no one should struggle for the truth of God's Word, if their preacher is against it. No one should have this sad attitude. If something in your past caused this in you, I encourage you to again take up the torch. No one can go wrong doing so. And by the way, when you say that 'whatever happened to you wasn't the pastor's fault', this is only a figment of your imagination.

I'll end with this, the Jesus name movement was started by men who saw Jesus name baptism in the Bible. Not everyone wanted to believe it, most Trinitarian pastors tossed the Jesus name ministers out of their churches.
They didn't go wee wee wee all the way home. They got to work, and they didn't look back. That I continue when you wish me quieted, makes me to be like those Jesus name ministers mentioned. Are you now complimenting me? My continuing presence here in AFF, in spite of your nastiness over the past year, demonstrates I do not go wee wee wee.

Thanks for the contributions you made to this thread which were Biblically based. It's always good to hear scriptural thoughts. Keep it up.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Lighten up dude. I was just trying to make a joke and you missed it.

Don, I think we are way past levity.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Part 1/3.

Like the fool who must defend himself, the guy who wants to deliver the package also does. The big dog barks, all the other dogs join in, and they scare off the deliverer.

The one ring show wants to run in shame when the three ring circus sets up their big tent.

Some Christians have great abilities to gather and retain info. They will sit like an elephant on the ant to smother the message the ant was given. But elephants do not necessarily a Bible interpreter make.

Don, the above is an absolute dumpster fire. You need to take a moment after you post your thoughts and reread them. They might make sense to you as you type, but the final product is a mess.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

While Dom is agreed with, when saying that Ro14 is about weak/strong saints and their views, this then shows that it comes from surface reading. But Dom fails to address the reading between the lines methods which Paul and Jesus used to interpret scripture. You do know how to read between the lines, don't you Dom?

Dom addresses surface reading and struts about proclaiming 'I've won'. But readers will note that he has not addressed the points made from reading between the lines, to show them wrong. Those doing so demonstrate incomplete understandings of interpretive methods, which sitting on the ant is trying to compensate for.

The one ring show keeps repeating the same act and the elephant repeats the methodology which has worked in the past, sitting on the little guy.

The one-ring show has learnt that repetition works. Truth cannot be defeated because God is truth. But plz Dom, show the reasoning behind the claim of post 1 wrong, if you can. Then you will have demonstrated the ability to use that which the elephant does not use in surface reading ability.

I have proved my position in numerous posts. Also dealt with B. Smith and Pastor Doe's altercation. I have explained everything in detail. I don't see how I missed anything other than Pastor Doe using Canadian law to swear out a no contact order to keep B. Smith from entering the premises. Other than that I believe I nailed everything down pretty well. Also you would be the one ring horse and pony show. due to everyone of your posts deal with the same tired arguments. Like I have said before, if you even act half the way you do here, there is no way a church would be careless enough to fellowship you. Let alone hand you the keys to the pulpit to drive it up and down the block.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Dom again, does not aim at disproving my Ro14 conclusions.

Yes, I have. You teach that God is unable to clarify His thoughts to His believers. Therefore the Apostle Paul knowing this allowed his churches to pretty much believe whatever they wanted. But, since all false doctrine is stupid, and is question begging, your teaching presents contradictions with the Pauline epistles. Paul states in Corinthians that concerning head coverings, what he taught was the only teaching practiced in 100% in all the churches 1 Corinthians 11:16. Paul goes on to say no one is to be contentious over "his" teaching on head coverings. Is head coverings a "one" teaching? One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism? B. Smith and Pastor John Doe need to figure it out. Paul commands that no one is to be contentious with what he taught. So, you have an Apostle laying down the gavel on any arguments concerning what he just taught.

Don, how about you just stick with the vacuum ministry?

Does Paul contradict my views on Romans 14? No. But your view of Romans 14 is lays bleeding in your hands.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

What you have shown, Dom, is what surface reading of Ro14 shows.

Because I believe that God isn't Mithra. I also believe that I'm not in a mystery religion. I am not a Druid or a Gnostic who believes God deals with His children in the abstract. Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. Jesus' statement of who was to understand and know the mystery of the Kingdom was His devoted followers. Jesus didn't speak to His disciples in riddles, and when the didn't understand He would explain it to them. Acts 2:5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven. These devout men understood the Apostles speaking in tongues. But in Acts 2:13 we have "others" mocking the same Apostles because all they heard were babblings. Two groups Jesus addresses in Matthew 13, His followers, and the others. The others get riddles they cannot understand. The followers get full clarity and explanation. Sadly to you Don, the Bible is just a pages and pages of riddles. Since that seems to be blatantly apparent, you teach a doctrine that is befitting to your Inclusionist agenda.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

It is good to do so. You have yet to disprove the means I have used, to show how my conclusions are wrong. But, plz do continue to say it like you say it. It may then be that you will even convince yourself that it is really true. What chapter are these Gandalf and Hobbit found? Oh, right. These are fictional, just like your fictional 'disproving' of my conclusions. When you come back to reality, then we'll wait to see your real talents finally put to use. But, pray tell, why have you not yet used these talents which you actually have, and have not yet disproven the means I use to provide a conclusion of Ro14? Plz, detail this, so I will know what you talk about.

Would you like me to explain it in Greek?

https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.co...4&postcount=32

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[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

I have said that no one should disagree with your weak/strong view, that all others should also look deeper, with a between the lines reading of Ro14, to discover deeper truths which God's Word often shows deeper.

Don, deeper truths? But, what you are really saying is that you twist the scripture to fit your agenda for Inclusionism. We are admonished by God to not add or subtract from His words. Deuteronomy 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you." This is a command not a suggestion, therefore the Apostle Paul wouldn't of instructed mature elders and elder saints to have multiple opinions concerning beliefs which dealt with God's word. Peter himself admonishes the church not to twist scripture as you do. 2 Peter 3:16 And remember, our Lord’s patience gives people time to be saved. This is what our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom God gave him. Speaking of these things in all of his letters. Some of his comments are hard to understand, and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters to mean something quite different, just as they do with other parts of Scripture. And this will result in their destruction. There isn't a reading between the lines, adding what ever baloney pops in your head as if it was a text message from God. If you have to make it up, then that's on you. No pastor is stupid enough to hand over a leadership position to a guy who teaches that scripture can mean one thing to one guy, and then mean something else to another guy. Whatever is good and perfect is a gift coming down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow. Which means God's Word doesn't change with time. Therefore it doesn't change because of your self serving agenda.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

But not Dom. He seemingly does not have these abilities in spite of the vast knowledge he holds of both scripture and the world. I feel like an ant when beside this knowledge. Do you wish all to believe you have not yet learned about reading between the lines?

Deuteronomy 4:2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. Deuteronomy 12:32
What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

1 Corinthians 4:6
Brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us not to go beyond what is written. Then you will not take pride in one man over another.

1 Corinthians 4:6 Paul admonishes the church, the weak and the strong to NOT go beyond what is WRITTEN!

Pretty darn simple if you don't have a self serving agenda.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Dom below, mostly avoids commenting on the main reason for this thread.

Well, that's a lie. Because I've dealt with everything from Dan to Beersheba. You are a mess Doc.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Perhaps my review of Dom's posts should be given, to produce the verity that this claim of his is not factual.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Perhaps Dom is calling me a trouble maker, making this to be in line with his opening tone.

No, I use the term troublemaker for individuals who force their doctrinal differences on their elders or pastors. First and foremost they don't believe like you. Since they don't believe for a plethora of different reasons, and you are pushing them to accept your mind concerning the scripture you are going to fail, and fail catastrophically. A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle! Then with the utter nonsense you believe to top it off, you wonder why B. Smith is placed on the PAY NO MIND LIST! Then you use Jude's contending for the faith as some sort of a Carte Blanche to justify your behavior. These are the leadership of a church which B. Smith attends. He doesn't have to stay there if he doesn't agree to what is being taught there. Yet, if what he believes is totally rejected no amount of kicking in the pastor's door is going to win him friends and fellowship. If Sister John Doe lifts her eyebrow at B. Smith, and doesn't extend a hand of fellowship, well honey child, it would be well deserved. Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe!

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

And Dom again diverts to topics which do not address the main reason of the thread, Ro14. Why Dom? When you have so much talent? Plz show wrong the reasoning used to present my conclusions. You keep saying you have done so. You repeat everything else but do not repeat the part which shows that you have.

Don, again would you like me to explain it in Greek?

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Errr, are you saying I haven't responded to what you've said? Errr, who will believe you when you say I do not reply to what you have said. No one reading these posts will agree. But then, enlighten us all by quoting what I said in error, and telling all readers how it was wrong, if you dare. Of course, reader, Dom will not do so because what I have written makes too much sense to Bible readers. So, don't hold your breath to hear back from Dom with quotes of my words. What he has written in this post is bluster. Check posts 19 and 36.

Don, don't start to use lying as a defence. Lying about what is going on here makes you look bad. Which you already look bad, but topping it off with lying now makes you look like a liar who looks bad. Is B. Smith a liar? Does B. Smith tell lies about Pastor John Doe? Does B. Smith tell lies to his fellow brethren about Pastor John Doe? Did B. Smith get taken off Pastor John Doe's Xmas card list? I bet B. Smith will not be getting any invites to the dinner on the grounds. Why because B. Smith is ecclesiastically immature, wanting to get recognition of the small group of people which Pastor John Doe oversees.
Don, you want a word serving position? Well, this isn't the way to go about it. Tell B. Smith to wash the feet of Pastor John Doe, and then move on to Quebec. French Canadians know how to take care of B. Smiths.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

No.

No you say? Then how can you believe that Pastor John Doe would even consider B.Smith? Don, once again, you have proved you are a walkin' contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction. You answered no, imagine that, but out of the same mouth you want B. Smith to have a word serving position?

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

But now you're actually going in the right direction, Dom. Kudos to you. Here you are actually tackling my conclusions in attempts to disprove the reasons why my conclusions are wrong. You go boy! Keep going in this direction. I've been waiting long time for this. See if my reasonings are faulty and lay it out for us all to see. Stop the nonsense you usually provide when deriding my character instead of deriding my views.

Don, I've been going in the right direction on your baloney since day one.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Funny that. You say I see everything wrong in church. But yet, here I am - writing only about one thing - Ro14 - and not about the 'everything wrong' you say I see.

Don, the title of this thread isn't Romans 14. It is Discrepancy in Church Practice. The first post we have the author of the thread tell us the readers how all his Christian life he has been encouraged to contend earnestly for the faith. We are then told about the organization of the UPC, how they licence ministers who are not in agreement with doctrines concerning head coverings.In short the author of this thread (you) believe the UPCI is accepting false doctrines by giving ministers a pass, by giving them a license.
You then introduce us to the saints who cannot get a word serving position because they don't believe as the leadership on head coverings. Then you grace us with the example of Pastor John Doe, and the protagonist B. Smith. We aren't even introduced to Romans 14, and 15 until the end of your first post. You are asking the readers if we would comment on the pastor and the saint relationship concerning different views of doctrine. Hey, if you wanted us to only discuss your blasphemous beliefs concerning the book of Romans. Then Don, you should of named the thread applicably. Instead of crying and moaning about how I haven't refuted your nonsensical teachings.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

That I resist your baiting, to change the topics of discussion, shows I do not wish to talk about every wrong.

Go to post 1.

I'm right on topic. You just should've made better choices before you came to a public forum to belly ache about how your pastor won't make you the bishop. All because you believe crazy things about the Pauline epistles. I still find it hypocritical that since you believe that Paul just wanted us all to agree to disagree you refuse to cut the pastor any slack. It's your way or the highway. The way you won't let go of this discussion only proves you must be a fly in the church ointment.


I'm bored, I'm just repeating myself. Don, anything else you have to add to this discussion was probably already wrestled. But, you are such a burr in the saddle, you won't bring anything valuable to this discussion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Funny that. You say I see everything wrong in church. But yet, here I am - writing only about one thing - Ro14 - and not about the 'everything wrong' you say I see. That I resist your baiting, to change the topics of discussion, shows I do not wish to talk about every wrong. Funny that. This shows you wrong. If I would rant and rave about everything wrong at church you might hear of it here in my AFF writings. But yet you don't, do you Dom? You don't because it is a figment of your imagination. You make stuff up about me and tell it here like as if it is truth, don't you Dom? The elders and the pastor God bless them is my constant prayer, but I don't bless any who distort the interpretation of scripture. I leave that up to you because you do enough for both of us.

This is coming from the man who claims we "should" read between the lines? Don, your posts since the first one in the thread bleeds about what you feel is wrong with the church. Your whole scenario of Pastor Doe and B.Smith is an altercation between leaders and members.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

The last time I checked, I saw that the church was a body of believers.

Don, that would be the entirety of Christians throughout the world. What you and I are talking about in this thread. Where Pastor John Doe and B. Smith abide, is a local congregation. This is where a group comes together with elders. Could be a living room in a home, a home where the pastor lives. Could be a building where there is a pastor and a church board. Bills get paid by the leadership and the congregants. You can either get on board and join the team, or not. I understand that you want to see this all as the First Century A.D. but that's not exactly reality. You are dealing with a building (in most cases) and the group inhabiting that building. Last time I checked, Jesus and His apostles didn't have anyone sign visitor cards, or sell peanut brittle to help fix the A/C.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Every part must take its proper functioning place. God has no place for big dogs who take the credit when they say 'this is my church, my building, my platform, my pews'.

Sorry, if I'm not waxing philosophically with you here. But that is ideologically wonderful. You are correct, God wants us to all be one with only Himself as our head. Yet, we are in churches, those churches are either in living rooms, basements, attics, or small buildings to huge beautiful buildings. People run the services, and make decisions on everything from cleaning toilets to who will preach on certain nights. That's pretty much the nuts and bolts of it. The man in charge is most likely the one who preaches all the time, and the one who is sitting on the platform. Also the one everyone goes to for spiritual guidance. He is usually the one who pays all the bills, fixes all issues with the property which the pews are located. So, while you and I could wax philosophically concerning God's wants and needs concerning the Body of Christ and how everyone is fitly framed into the Body. We have regular good old bread and butter beans congregations with regular guys and gals running the show. Again, you can either get on board, or go find another group who believes along the lines you do.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

If I am a singular macrophage cell who has discovered poison in the blood stream, and want to point it out to the rest of the body, then I do the job which God created the macrophage for. If I don't do it, I show I have no purpose and the designer of the body will arrange to remove it.

Readers? Was I ever wrong about what conclusions I came to from Don's thread? Don, this is what you are all about. You see I don't have to accuse you of anything. You add your own ammunition. You start the fire and I just pour on the gasoline. You see, if B. Smith is a macrophage cell, then he will always be looking for infection. If he then sees Pastor and Sister John Doe as an infection of the Body, then he will go after them. Point it out to the rest of the Body? Sounds like that macrophage cell has become an Absolom macrophage cell? Don, you aren't Martin Luther nailing your 95 Theses on Pastor John Doe's forehead. People can get delusional start seeing themselves as a religious reformer wanting to free the saints from their leadership. When the barebones truth is that the people are in that congregation for multiple reasons way too numerous for just this post. They may even see the same problems B.Smith is seeing, and have the very same issue. But when the time comes to overthrow the powers that be, they aren't willing or even care to do so. All that happens is chaos. B.Smith eventually moves on to his next show, and Pastor, Sister John Doe, and the elders end up picking up the pieces left behind. Worst thing in the world is ecclesiastical delusion. B. Smith needs to bring his thoughts and ponderings to the leadership. Do it with a sincere heart to present his case in love, salted with peace. But if he gets rejected, then take it like a champion. Either sit down, smile, and wave, or leave in peace.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Alexander the coppersmith has done me much harm, does not demonstrate the gift Paul had was making room for Paul.

Who ever said it does? Your gift or talent making opportunity for you is self explanatory. We get opportunity in any certain field of labor because of our particular set of skills. With B. Smith’s lack of receiving a word serving position can also be his attitude, which might supersede his abilities. B. Smith could be a super genius when it comes to the Word. Yet, if he exhibits a poor attitude towards leader ship, or the congregation. It doesn’t matter how much he knows about the Word of God. His opinion on head coverings could be manna from Heaven. But, if his main objective is focused on being a bud nipper, to the congregation, to the pastor, towards the pastor’s family, and elders. Then he will be found the leader of the snow shovel ministry. Now, for a qualifier, I respect the brothers and sisters who put the hard work in taking care of details of the butcher, the baker, and the candlestick maker. Don’t get me wrong. Yet, we someone always harping on being a leader and never ever wants to be a servant? Then that could manifest into a bigger problem years later. No one cares about what you know theologically if you can’t serve them with a servants’s mind.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

That Daniel's prayer was hindered for three weeks does not show the gift he had made room for him.

Daniel’s gift that created opportunity for him gave him a position in the kingdom of Babylon. B. Smith’s gift seems to place him at odds with Pastor John Doe. B. Smith, would do well if you re-examined his position on the matter. Whatever problem Pastor J.D. has is his own problem. B.Smith can’t do anything about that other than pray. But, B. Smith can work on B. Smith, theologically and behaviorally.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

That David was brought to Saul by his gift does not mean the gift was not working when Saul tried to kill him. Your comparisons suck.

David’s gift was that he rose to the position of King. But, the reason Saul wanted to kill David was monarchial jealousy. This presents another interesting point. Does B. Smith believe that after he presented his mind concerning head coverings and his position was rejected, does he feel the matter is now personal? Does he now see Pastor John Doe as a jealous rival? Right then and there B. Smith needs to abandon all thoughts of a word serving position. For the reason that if he views leadership as being jealous of him, how long would it take before he sees new converts are his rivals? All because they challenge his views? I would take B. Smith out to the City of Fort Lauderdale to see how he does among the friendlies and the hostiles in an open Bible study. That is one sure fire way of testing not of a gift of knowledge, but the gift Ministerial patience.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

This again demonstrates your incomplete interpretive abilities. I regret being so dramatic saying so, because I do not usually do so, but I feel compelled to when smothered.

In an open Bible study out in a busy park in any large city can be smothering.
Inside a church family you are with “family” you build a relationship with these people through love and trust. Same with the leadership. But, out in the busy city locations you are dealing with all sorts of people who have all sorts of spiritual issues. “If racing against mere men makes you tired, how will you race against horses? If you stumble and fall on open ground, what will you do in the thickets near the Jordan? Don, if you buckle under dealing with a faceless nobody on a forum, then you certainly would last with me face to face. B. Smith would’ve had some sort of relationship beyond the one dimensional world of social media. Therefore he would’ve been able not only to articulate his position on head covers in a peaceful brotherly way, but also convey physically and behaviorally his idea of Romans 14.

Originally Posted by donfriesen1

Dom don't be ridiculous and say B Smith's righteous desires are negated by Pastor Doe's unscriptural actions. No one should say this. You did not learn this from the Bible.

You see what you just said? B.Smith wants and needs are negated by Pastor John Doe? Is this hypothetical church on the Forbidden Planet only consist of two people? Pastor J.D. and B. Smith? Don, if the church family is like 30 people, men, women, and children, don’t they have wants and needs? B. Smith is focused on B. Smith, remember he is contending for the faith. Yet, it really looks like he is contending to be heard over all other voices. Like I said before, if he has presented his thoughts and they were rejected, then either sit down and shut up, or move on. It’s really that simple. Also, if B. Smith presented his material, and it was rejected. How much chewing time did B. Smith even give Pastor Doe? I know everything you think comes out of your mouth is heavenly golden manna. But, to others it may be finger nails across a chalk board. At least give time for digestion and contemplation. B. Smith might get a phone call or an email in 20 years with Pastor J.D. saying eureka! I see it B.Smith!!! I see it!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

The error of reasoning of Don’s Romans 14 interpretation was given in multiple posts in this thread. Anyone other than Don care to show me how I didn’t address this? Yet, allow me to give a brief cover of what Don believes Romans 14 to mean. Paul is telling the church that he doesn’t want doctrinal issues to disrupt the unity of the Body. Paul isn’t addressing elders (strong) or just new converts (weak) Paul is addressing everyone who hold any different view. The only items we aren’t supposed to hold our own opinion on are One Lord,One Faith, One Baptism. Yet, my position is that Paul wasn’t allowing opinions to be the rule of the day. The conclusion of that behavior would be chaos. 1 Corinthians 4:6, where Paul tells the Corinthians that he and Apollos applied certain lessons (not to be puffed up or favor one leader over another) so the church would "learn not to go beyond what is written," meaning they should stick to the teachings of Scripture rather than their own opinions or rivalries. This phrase emphasizes humility and grounding Christian doctrine in the written Word. Therefore, contradicting Don’s interpretation of Romans 14.