Hate Of Reformed Theology - Page 11

Socialite · #**101** 01-28-2011, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

In the context that damnation is not His Will.

Yes, He knows whose are His.
Yes, He gives us the power to make choices.
Yes, He knows what choices we will make before we make them.
No, He will not send those who are not His Sheep to eternal damnation.

If a person ends up there, it will be as a consequence to their rejection of the Grace of God.

The damnation of the wicked is not a consequence of God's Character, it's a consequence of their wickedness.

Not sure you are getting what was meant.

His nature and character demands holiness and justice. This was the purpose of Jesus' mission and the Cross, in fact. So, that there is impending judgment, and an assignment for death, is a consequence of God's very nature -- and of course, a consequence of our own rebellion.

Socialite · #**102** 01-28-2011, 05:15 PM

Gonna see if I can find a good article that articulates the cultural worldviews about free will, and how they've changed over time.

What we view as "free will" as been souped up with cultural steroids, fed by the worldliness of our day.

Jermyn Davidson · #**103** 01-28-2011, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

It's not a major part. My points are made for the benefit of those who may disagree and would like to take me to task. If I need to be corrected, so be it.

So I tried to respond to, "it's not a major part".

His Grace is the only part, in the way I view salvation.

Choice is an inherrent part or component of Grace.

Without choice, there can not be Grace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

I don't find this statement to have scriptural support. In fact, I have a hard time seeing a relationship. Grace is God's work and offer to and for us. Choice is only related as Grace is shown to us, and our ability to respond (which is Grace in itself). Eph 2 even says that the ability to accept the offer, and believe, is a gift of God in itself.

We are not robots.

Robots don't love.

Love is a choice.

Relationship requires a choice to be made by more than one party.

Our relationship with God requires a choice, if love is going to be involved.

The Grace of God that appears to all requires that a choice be made.

If a person is almost persuaded, it is because of their choice-- not because of God's failure to reach them, not because of God's failure to love them, and not because God chose to simply bring them to a place of being almost persuaded.

We know this because God makes it clear in His Word that it is not His Will that any should perish.

That scripture precludes the notion that God foreordains anyone to ETERNAL DAMNATION.

pelathais · #**104** 01-28-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Irrelevant.

We are all damned. He will one day send those who are not His sheep into the ultimate place of death. I don't pretend to understand that fully. Salvation is truly all his idea. Damnation is not his idea, it's the consequence of his character: Good, Right, Perfect, Holy, Just, etc...

He atoned and became the "way in" for those who are His.

You reminded me of something I heard some old Hebrewist say once about Isaiah 45:7. I'm not learned enough in Hebrew literature to either argue or confirm, but it was interesting.

He was parsing the verbs translated as "form," "create" and "make." "Form" and "make" were said to involve a "hands on" type of connotation. Thus, the Almighty is saying that He "squeezed" out "light" and that this is how "darkness" came into being (was "created").

A similar phrasing is used for "good" and "evil." God "made" the good, and 'suddenly' there was "evil." The idea was illustrated by imagining yourself in a room without any light. There are no shadows in such a room. Then, a light is turned on and shadows automatically appear. Did the person who turned on the light give us "light" or "shadows." Both, obviously.

But it was the intention of that person to simply give us light. Shadows end up being a necessary consequence of the presence of light. Evil might be seen in a similar fashion. If God had done nothing at all then we ....

you know? There's a really powerful message here but it's being drowned out by the bustling of innumerable teenagers right now.

Cindy · #**105** 01-28-2011, 05:24 PM

What is reformed theology?

pelathais · #**106** 01-28-2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Gonna see if I can find a good article that articulates the cultural worldviews about free will, and how they've changed over time.

What we view as "free will" as been souped up with cultural steroids, fed by the worldliness of our day.

A lot of that "soup" however comes from some powerful and even scientific sources. Don't forget to factor the quantum realm and it's "Uncertainty Principle" in your calculations. Our whole universe exists upon a platform that is so indeterminable that determinism hardly seems possible; yet atoms and molecules link up so predictably that it all has the appearance of a grand design.

LUKE2447 · #**107** 01-28-2011, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cindy

What is reformed theology?

a waste of time... LOL

Cindy · #**108** 01-28-2011, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

a waste of time... LOL

hahaha, thanks.

Jermyn Davidson · #**109** 01-28-2011, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

Not sure you are getting what was meant.

His nature and character demands holiness and justice. This was the purpose of Jesus' mission and the Cross, in fact. So, that there is impending judgment, and an assignment for death, is a consequence of God's very nature -- and of course, a consequence of our own rebellion.

There are occasions in the OT where justice demanded, He had decided to bring destruction, and still He changed His mind.

God ordained cities of refuge.

God chose to spare.

God chose to send His Son.

God could have chose a different way.

God created us with the power to choose as well.

His Sovereignty does not demand that eternal damnation be a consequence of His Nature.

Our damnation is a consequence of our rebellion.

Socialite · #**110** 01-28-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pelathais

A lot of that "soup" however comes from some powerful and even scientific sources. Don't forget to factor the quantum realm and it's "Uncertainty Principle" in your calculations. Our whole universe exists upon a platform that is so indeterminable that determinism hardly seems possible; yet atoms and molecules link up so predictably that it all has the appearance of a grand design.

Not sure I understand, Pel.