The Slippery Emergent Slope

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Do you have documentation for that? Or more UR speculative argumentation?

You contend that this was a majority view, and Church Historians just don't have it that way.

That's because you only hear the "historians" that agree with your view.

I have presented evidence of the early view, and it still is available on the forum.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The "wrath to come" came in 70AD, on Jerusalem and Judea, with a vengeance.

There is still plenty of "wrath" for the harvest of sin and evil for folks today.

The fact is, however, that the doctrine of eternal torment is so grotesque that neither the church nor the lost can actually believe it as defined by Christian tradition.

If the church REALLY believed it, nothing else in the world would matter. ED is so horrible that it cannot actually be comprehended. The idea has developed out of the hyperbolic languages of the early centuries.

I knew you'd say that concerning "wrath to come." It's interesting, though, that the call to repentance was connected to this "wrath to come" no matter your eschatological certainty.

I'd say babies having their heads bashed into walls in the OT judgement is grotesque as well, but who am I, with my Western sensibilities, to say God isn't just. ED is not our core doctrine, it's the underlying reality, contrasting how Jesus is our hope, saving us from this death. What eternal death looks like exactly is rightly up for debate, but that there is a "casting away" and separation from God is very evident in scripture.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by crakjak

The "wrath to come" came in 70AD, on Jerusalem and Judea, with a vengeance.

There is still plenty of "wrath" for the harvest of sin and evil for folks today.

The fact is, however, that the doctrine of eternal torment is so grotesque that neither the church nor the lost can actually believe it as defined by Christian tradition.

If the church REALLY believed it, nothing else in the world would matter. ED is so horrible that it cannot actually be comprehended. The idea has developed out of the hyperbolic languages of the early centuries.

Mere speculation and conjecture.

Just add scripture. That would help a lot. From scripture, we would have some basis of conversation.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by crakjak

That's because you only hear the "historians" that agree with your view.

I have presented evidence of the early view, and it still is available on the forum.

You said the MAJORITY. I haven't sought out anyone that agrees with me, discarding those who don't.

I'm aware of Origen, Barth (who wasn't actually a UR) and a few others. In no ways were they a majority view, and in no way did they represent a mainstream view. Did you read the link I posted?

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Crackjak...

All rhetorical.

There is nothing in the Word of God that states the old serpent and all of his followers are going to be saved...not even one hint from scripture. Besides, the idea of ANOTHER Gospel is reprehensible. There is not now, nor will there ever be another Gospel.

Whether satan is saved or not is not the issue, and I have never declared that he would be, only that God is able to do what is impossible in human eyes. And that He, most assuredly is going to redeem HIS whole creation, and that HE will be ALL in ALL. There most definitively will not remain a hellhole of wicked beings cursing God without end. If this were the case, it would require God to create it and to maintain it, not going to happen!!!!

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Whether satan is saved or not is not the issue, and I have never declared that he would be, only that God is able to do what is impossible in human eyes. And that He, most assuredly is going to redeem HIS whole creation, and that HE will be ALL in ALL. There most definitively will not remain a hellhole of wicked beings cursing God without end. If this were the case, it would require God to create it and to maintain it, not going to happen!!!!

Most UR's are forced into this position... and many historically believed this.

It's not the picture of Satan's judgment that we get in scripture.

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Whether satan is saved or not is not the issue, and I have never declared that he would be, only that God is able to do what is impossible in human eyes. And that He, most assuredly is going to redeem HIS whole creation, and that HE will be ALL in ALL. There most definitively will not remain a hellhole of wicked beings cursing God without end. If this were the case, it would require God to create it and to maintain it, not going to happen!!!!

Can't you see that all that you have offered is only RHETORICAL from speculation...and THAT from a prejudiced point of view?

I believe that your Dad had a great deal more wisdom that what you have accredited to him. Look at his work. It is the product of the Word that he preached...a product that will continue to yield fruit for a thousand years if the Lord should tarry that long. THAT, is evidence of great wisdom and understanding.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by crakjak

Trying to share the Good News, that as many as possible can enter in, as soon as possible.

It is not so much the finality as it is the journey, what does one have to endure or experience on the way?

God has already determined man's final end, every last one will finally bow and confess, that He is Lord, and that confession will be "...to the glory of God the Father...." so that is a great finality that only God could bring about.

But some, will experience destruction of all that they have worked for in this physical life, everything they are, do and attain will be burned up, because they live to themselves and not unto the Lord. "All their works will be burned up, however they will be saved, though by fire."

So, don't view UR as a get out of jail free, all have challenges and difficulty to deal with, some just learn early on to "give it all to Jesus". This life is to learn something, and we all will eventually do just that.

If we all wind up in the same place, what does it matter what I learn in this life?
This is the failure of your doctrine.
Why do I need to be "saved" if everyone will be saved?
Why did Christ need to come and die on the cross, if everyone will be saved?
This is nonsensical.
Not stated as an attack on you CJ, just my opinion!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Can't you see that all that you have offered is only RHETORICAL from speculation...and THAT from a prejudiced point of view?

I believe that your Dad had a great deal more wisdom that what you have accredited to him. Look at his work. It is the product of the Word that he preached...a product that will continue to yield fruit for a thousand years if the Lord should tarry that long. THAT, is evidence of great wisdom and understanding.

App, I'm not a Univeralist. Heck, I don't know what I am besides a Follower of Christ. But, according to your version of what it takes to obtain citizenship in heaven and a "get-out-of-hell-free" card, there are VERY few people in this history of the world that are actually escaping hell.

Every year, 57 million people die and of those, maybe just a few hundred...or let's stretch it out to a few thousand....have met the qualifications of the Pentecostal version of the new birth. But let's really, really stretch the number and say that, every year, 50,000 people die that have met the John 3, Acts 2 version of the New Birth.

A quick calculation shows us that .0008771% of our world's population is going to heaven, and 99.9991339% of the world is going to hell.

Do you really believe that God, foreknowing this from the foundation of the world, created man, in His own image, just to eternally burn nearly all of them? That seems to paint a picture of a VERY cruel God.

[Apprehended]

[QUOTE=notofworks;1041002]

App, I'm not a Univeralist. Heck, I don't know what I am besides a Follower of Christ. But, according to your version of what it takes to obtain citizenship in heaven and a "get-out-of-hell-free" card, there are VERY few people in this history of the world that are actually escaping hell.

No argument from me. I agree. I remember the words of Jesus when he emphasized the word "few," in his discourse when he said, "...few there be that find it."

Every year, 57 million people die and of those, maybe just a few hundred...or let's stretch it out to a few thousand....have met the qualifications of the Pentecostal version of the new birth. But let's really, really stretch the number and say that, every year, 50,000 people die that have met the John 3, Acts 2 version of the New Birth.

I'm not sure how such statics could be compiled, even if they could be. I doubt it.

A quick calculation shows us that .0008771% of our world's population is going to heaven, and 99.9991339% of the world is going to hell.

I dunno. I sometimes wished that I was God. But he wont let me. If it was up to me, everyone would be saved....'cept that ol' debil that has caused me and the world so much trouble.

Do you really believe that God, foreknowing this from the foundation of the world, created man, in His own image, just to eternally burn nearly all of them?

I have no way of knowing what God is thinking. I suspect there are degrees of torment...since Jesus used the words "torments." But, what do I know? I'm just a poor E. Texas redneck tending to my little Pea Patch. I leave to God his own eternal plan for the eons to come.

That seems to paint a picture of a VERY cruel God.

I would never in the least suggest that God is unjust. Be it far from me. God is good, just and righteous. However, I am aware that God sends no one to hell. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. If a man goes there, he goes there as a trespasser.