The Slippery Emergent Slope - Page 14

crakjak · #**131** 03-04-2011, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Crackjak...

See my post no. 123.

...and would it be possible to answer with a little more substance than just mere rhetoric.

Thank you

See #130

Apprehended · #**132** 03-04-2011, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

You, would no doubt argue that God has different requirements for different ages or dispensations.

The elder brother was greatly displeased that the Father accepted the prodigal, because the prodigal didn't do it like the elder. And the employees that were hired early in the day were very displeased that the ones hired in the eleventh hour received the same compensation as they.

With God, ALL things are possible. Since it is possible for HIM to redeem ALL, do you really think HE is going to burn up or torture live beings??? That my friend is a sad view of an all powerful Creator!!

Is this what your father also believed? Did he also have a sad view of an all powerful Creator?

Anyway, whether those that go to hell will have an air-conditioned barroom to consort with the harlots and whore-mongers there, and to enjoy spring like days in an floral garden or to be in torments is beside the question. What is central to the question is that there is nothing else for the foundation of our faith than the Word of God. Rhetorical questions could be asked from now to the end of time but without the final authority of the Word, they will forever remain questions to which men will offer conjecture.

crakjak · #**133** 03-05-2011, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Is this what your father also believed? Did he also have a sad view of an all powerful Creator?

Anyway, whether those that go to hell will have an air-conditioned barroom to consort with the harlots and whore-mongers there, and to enjoy spring like days in an floral garden or to be in torments is beside the question. What is central to the question is that there is nothing else for the foundation of our faith than the Word of God. Rhetorical questions could be asked from now to the end of time but without the final authority of the Word, they will forever remain questions to which men will offer conjecture.

My late father loved God and people within the context of his understanding.

I am not totally sure what his view would have been on this subject, of course he seemed to have the traditional view. He was not exposed to a fair view of UR, to my knowledge.

This is not "rhetorical", God will be ALL in ALL, he will not be defeated by "human freewill" nor the power of Satan.

The Word of God gives support to UR, as powerful as many of the doctrines that you hold today.

Socialite · #**134** 03-05-2011, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

Really? Or do you like most of the traditional church see 90% plus of mankind in endless torment or annihilated?

That doesn't change that I view Jesus in a much more urgent and emphatic way as Savior. A Savior is there, saving people from a very dark reality.

A Gospel without the reality of how one can have a tragic end, if they choose a life outside of Jesus, is a Gospel without any urgency -- which was a staple of the early church (that and their warnings about "the wrath to come.")

Socialite · #**135** 03-05-2011, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

There is much evidence that UR was the most common view until after the fifth century. The Dark Ages brought about an abuse of those with the UR view, so that the "church" and the Roman sword could manipulate and control the masses thru much fear.

Do you have documentation for that? Or more UR speculative argumentation?

You contend that this was a majority view, and Church Historians just don't have it that way.

Apprehended · #**136** 03-05-2011, 11:49 AM

Crackjak...

All rhetorical.

There is nothing in the Word of God that states the old serpent and all of his followers are going to be saved...not even one hint from scripture. Besides, the idea of ANOTHER Gospel is reprehensible. There is not now, nor will there ever be another Gospel.

Socialite · #**137** 03-05-2011, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

That verse is no issue for UR, the disagree is to extrapolate the result of the broad way leading to endless torment or annihilation.

There is a way to righteousness... where does the other way go?

Just a few verses later:

Quote:

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

The righteous are scarcely saved.

Argumentative acrobatics to make the UR case. Extremely speculative against the history of the Church, the plain evidence in the Text, etc...

And I'm not saying our understanding of exactly what hell/eternal death looks like is plain and clear, but the idea that those who are not on the Lord's side will not inherit eternal life is most definitely obvious.

Socialite · #**138** 03-05-2011, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crakjak

My late father loved God and people within the context of his understanding.

I am not totally sure what his view would have been on this subject, of course he seemed to have the traditional view. He was not exposed to a fair view of UR, to my knowledge.

This is not "rhetorical", God will be ALL in ALL, he will not be defeated by "human freewill" nor the power of Satan.

The Word of God gives support to UR, as powerful as many of the doctrines that you hold today.

It's interesting you view God being "defeated" by free will. God is the One who Calls... he doesn't drive men to repentance. He calls. He bids them to come. He invites them to the dinner table. Into the Father's house. Into fellowship. That is the Kingdom of God.

I can list you dozens of scriptures that show what God "desired" juxtaposed to what really happened.

He wasn't defeated, and I detest the way you say that. He conquered death, hell and the grave, and provided a way out, for all who will believe/trust in Him.

crakjak · #**139** 03-05-2011, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

That doesn't change that I view Jesus in a much more urgent and emphatic way as Savior. A Savior is there, saving people from a very dark reality.

A Gospel without the reality of how one can have a tragic end, if they choose a life outside of Jesus, is a Gospel without any urgency -- which was a staple of the early church (that and their warnings about "the wrath to come.")

The "wrath to come" came in 70AD, on Jerusalem and Judea, with a vengeance.

There is still plenty of "wrath" for the harvest of sin and evil for folks today.

The fact is, however, that the doctrine of eternal torment is so grotesque that neither the church nor the lost can actually believe it as defined by Christian tradition.

If the church REALLY believed it, nothing else in the world would matter. ED is so horrible that it cannot actually be comprehended. The idea has developed out of the hyperbolic languages of the early centuries.

Apprehended · #**140** 03-05-2011, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socialite

It's interesting you view God being "defeated" by free will. God is the One who Calls... he doesn't drive men to repentance. He calls. He bids them to come. He invites them to the dinner table. Into the Father's house. Into fellowship. That is the Kingdom of God.

I can list you dozens of scriptures that show what God "desired" juxtaposed to what really happened.

He wasn't defeated, and I detest the way you say that. He conquered death, hell and the grave, and provided a way out, for all who will believe/trust in Him.

Well said!