The Slippery Emergent Slope

[notofworks]

[QUOTE=Apprehended;1041011]

Originally Posted by notofworks

No argument from me. I agree. I remember the words of Jesus when he emphasized the word "few," in his discourse when he said, "...few there be that find it."

••And of course, this is the default verse for those that believe there are many going to hell and few going to heaven. But when Jesus said these things, was he referring to the subject we're discussing or was there something more he was talking about? IOW, was it as simple as, "Most are gonna burn, and a chosen, special few get to be winners"?

I'm not sure how such statics could be compiled, even if they could be. I doubt it.

••Agreed. The 57,000,000 deaths per year is a verified stat. The other is just a guess based on OP population numbers....a VERY generous guess.

I dunno. I sometimes wished that I was God. But he wont let me. If it was up to me, everyone would be saved....'cept that ol' debil that has caused me and the world so much trouble.

••The devil has, but "Greater is He.......".

I have no way of knowing what God is thinking. I suspect there are degrees of torment...since Jesus used the words "torments." But, what do I know? I'm just a poor E. Texas redneck tending to my little Pea Patch. I leave to God his own eternal plan for the eons to come.

••Just once as it pertains to eternity (Luke 16:23), and there, it says that the rich man was "in torments" (KJV) which indicates only one person was spoken of, which would seem to eliminate different torments for different people and would seem to indicate that the rich man was being tormented in more than one way.

I would never in the least suggest that God is unjust. Be it far from me. God is good, just and righteous. However, I am aware that God sends no one to hell. Hell was prepared for the devil and his angels. If a man goes there, he goes there as a trespasser.

••Nor would I suggest that God is unjust, and I don't believe He is, which is why I think the scope of God's grace is much wider than we suspect. As for the bolded...I know it's spun that way but if there is an intense gun battle happening in my front yard and someone frantically knocks on my door asking for entrance, and I refuse, wouldn't I be "sending" them into the spray of bullets?

[Apprehended]

Originally Posted by notofworks

••And of course, this is the default verse for those that believe there are many going to hell and few going to heaven. But when Jesus said these things, was he referring to the subject we're discussing or was there something more he was talking about? IOW, was it as simple as, "Most are gonna burn, and a chosen, special few get to be winners"?

From Matt. 7:14 he was talking about the few that would find the strait gate that leads to LIFE. Other than that, what do you think?

••Just once as it pertains to eternity (Luke 16:23), and there, it says that the rich man was "in torments" (KJV) which indicates only one person was spoken of, which would seem to eliminate different torments for different people and would seem to indicate that the rich man was being tormented in more than one way.

Of course.

There was no one else involved in the conversation between father Abraham and Lazrus. There was no reason to address the whole underworld of the eternally doomed. That one case is given as a principle. Why should each and every doomed individual been spoken to concerning each of their cases? One is enough to understand the principle, IMHO.

••Nor would I suggest that God is unjust, and I don't believe He is, which is why I think the scope of God's grace is much wider than we suspect. As for the bolded...I know it's spun that way but if there is an intense gun battle happening in my front yard and someone frantically knocks on my door asking for entrance, and I refuse, wouldn't I be "sending" them into the spray of bullets?

You spoke to my point. As you have stated, "to everyone that knocks the door is opened." There are conditions that are attached. The one escaping the hail of bullets in your front yard, must first knock. The door is opened. Next, he must enter in at the door. Jesus said that he was the door to the sheepfold. Everyone that enters in must enter in by the door.

I think your gun battle illustration speaks to the point quite well.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

From Matt. 7:14 he was talking about the few that would find the strait gate that leads to LIFE. Other than that, what do you think?

••A troubling verse for me, undoubtedly. In relative terms, how was Jesus using the word, "Few"? In His great gulf of love, if a great majority of people made it to heaven, would Jesus consider the small minority of those left out to be "Many" and the great majority to be "Few"? Admittedly, that seems unlikely, but since the context of that verse is included in the discussion of "false prophets", and parent that wouldn't refuse help to a child, etc., is this statement potentially connected to leadership, the higher calling of James 3:1? Again, maybe a stretch, but I would want to consider all possibilities here before I assume that only a microscopic percentage of the human race is rewarded with eternal life. If it's simply "knocking" that is rewarded, wouldn't you agree that Muslims are knocking on the door of eternal life?


Of course.

There was no one else involved in the conversation between father Abraham and Lazrus. There was no reason to address the whole underworld of the eternally doomed. That one case is given as a principle. Why should each and every doomed individual been spoken to concerning each of their cases? One is enough to understand the principle, IMHO.

••From what I can find, the KJV and the NKJV are the only versions that use the plural version of the word. I can't imagine this ambiguous mention of plural word relating to a single person would develop a theology of different degrees of hell.

You spoke to my point. As you have stated, "to everyone that knocks the door is opened." There are conditions that are attached. The one escaping the hail of bullets in your front yard, must first knock. The door is opened. Next, he must enter in at the door. Jesus said that he was the door to the sheepfold. Everyone that enters in must enter in by the door.

I think your gun battle illustration speaks to the point quite well.

••But....in your theology, it may be that they were required to ring the doorbell and not knock on the door. If they didn't ask just the right way, they would be refused. No?

[Apprehended]

••A troubling verse for me, undoubtedly. In relative terms, how was Jesus using the word, "Few"? In His great gulf of love, if a great majority of people made it to heaven, would Jesus consider the small minority of those left out to be "Many" and the great majority to be "Few"? Admittedly, that seems unlikely, but since the context of that verse is included in the discussion of "false prophets", and parent that wouldn't refuse help to a child, etc., is this statement potentially connected to leadership, the higher calling of James 3:1? Again, maybe a stretch, but I would want to consider all possibilities here before I assume that only a microscopic percentage of the human race is rewarded with eternal life. If it's simply "knocking" that is rewarded, wouldn't you agree that Muslims are knocking on the door of eternal life?

Obviously, if a speaker in trying to convey a thought contrasting the idea of “few” to the “many,” the idea would be obvious. I don’t see a great mystery there.

Yes, there are many knocking, including the whole Islamic world of Muslims by the untold millions. The problem is that they are knocking on the wrong door. Jesus said that if they climb up any other way, they are a thief and a robber. There is not but one way. Jesus said, "I AM THE WAY." We have to find out what or which way he went and then follow him...strangely, that will lead to the cross...the death, the burial and the resurrection, but it is HIS way. That way also includes TRUTH and it also includes THE LIFE.

••From what I can find, the KJV and the NKJV are the only versions that use the plural version of the word. I can't imagine this ambiguous mention of plural word relating to a single person would develop a theology of different degrees of hell.

Imagine it or not, the word is used in regards to someone who was currently in hell experiencing an assortment of torments. It is not a stretch of the imagination to understand how it is that there would not be an array of various torments for all who are there. It would seem more reasonable to me that the more wicked would experience a far greater degree of torment than those of less wickedness.

••But....in your theology, it may be that they were required to ring the doorbell and not knock on the door. If they didn't ask just the right way, they would be refused. No?

You are getting quite funny in your senior years. Nevertheless, there is an order in God’s program whether we agree with his plan or not. The whole of the universe is arranged in order from the smallest atom to each and every galaxie. There is nothing in God creation or system that is out of order, neither in the natural or the spiritual. Go according to order or be excluded from all of God’s divine provisions. That idea is not uncharitable or unjust. On the other hand it is the essence of all that is charitable and just. If it is in God’s divine order for one to gain admittance to the KOG to ring the doorbell, then I would highly recommend that one start pushing on the button and not quit until the door opens. Better still, lay down on the button. However, Jesus did not speak of ringing a doorbell. He did speak of knocking and to everyone that knocks, the door is opened.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by notofworks

App, I'm not a Univeralist. Heck, I don't know what I am besides a Follower of Christ. But, according to your version of what it takes to obtain citizenship in heaven and a "get-out-of-hell-free" card, there are VERY few people in this history of the world that are actually escaping hell.

Every year, 57 million people die and of those, maybe just a few hundred...or let's stretch it out to a few thousand....have met the qualifications of the Pentecostal version of the new birth. But let's really, really stretch the number and say that, every year, 50,000 people die that have met the John 3, Acts 2 version of the New Birth.

A quick calculation shows us that .0008771% of our world's population is going to heaven, and 99.9991339% of the world is going to hell.

Do you really believe that God, foreknowing this from the foundation of the world, created man, in His own image, just to eternally burn nearly all of them? That seems to paint a picture of a VERY cruel God.

NOW, this post is incredible. Don't expect to get much positive response, as it makes too much sense.

I mentioned in an earlier comment, the conservative view of Hell is full of "Missing Links". One such missing link is the fact that a majority of the Human Race has never heard of Hell.

People today just assume that burning in a lake of fire, forever, has always been taught.

There is also a proven “Language” problem. Translating from ancient wording is complicated. I will never forget when years ago my Pastor had told me, “The King James has a Trinitarian slant because Trinitarians were responsible for this Translation”.

Bibles will always have the slant of the current Culture who translates them.

The Roman Catholic Church also has had great influence on Scripture. Think about it, the only writings available to translate from, which are not the originals, are written in Greek (Official Roman Language). Rome had a burning Hell in their ancient beliefs, long before Christianity did.

My son-in-law speaks fluent Spanish, and he and I have had great discussions about this. He has told me, there are English words that have no Spanish match. And, just one word can make the difference of good or bad. One such word is Eternal or Forever.

By the slight of the pen, you can change the World, good or bad.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Can't you see that all that you have offered is only RHETORICAL from speculation...and THAT from a prejudiced point of view?

I believe that your Dad had a great deal more wisdom that what you have accredited to him. Look at his work. It is the product of the Word that he preached...a product that will continue to yield fruit for a thousand years if the Lord should tarry that long. THAT, is evidence of great wisdom and understanding.

My father is not on trial here, he served his generation, he ran his course and he died. I respect him deeply, he was a man that lived what he believed, and I believe he died with a testimony, "...that he pleased God..."

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Apprehended

Can't you see that all that you have offered is only RHETORICAL from speculation...and THAT from a prejudiced point of view?

That is you judgment, but your judgment is not true.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

If we all wind up in the same place, what does it matter what I learn in this life? This is the failure of your doctrine.
Why do I need to be "saved" if everyone will be saved?
Why did Christ need to come and die on the cross, if everyone will be saved?
This is nonsensical.
Not stated as an attack on you CJ, just my opinion!

This is where your point of view fails. God has a purpose in allowing evil to be introduced into the creation. The traditional view believes that it is only just the failure of Adam. You need to learn to be a son, and that will only come thru the refining fire of God, either in this life or in the life to come.

God is at work, in His creation, everything was created by Him and for Him, for His purpose and His glory. It is only after man has been exposed to "good and evil" that he can really understand the holiness of God. The garden and man's disobedience did not take God by surprise.

Christ's coming as a servant, makes the creation God centric, it changes everything.

[Raven]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

If we all wind up in the same place, what does it matter what I learn in this life?
This is the failure of your doctrine.
Why do I need to be "saved" if everyone will be saved?
Why did Christ need to come and die on the cross, if everyone will be saved?This is nonsensical.
Not stated as an attack on you CJ, just my opinion!

The only reason we are saved [whatever the view] is because he did come!

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by crakjak

This is where your point of view fails. God has a purpose in allowing evil to be introduced into the creation. The traditional view believes that it is only just the failure of Adam. You need to learn to be a son, and that will only come thru the refining fire of God, either in this life or in the life to come.

God is at work, in His creation, everything was created by Him and for Him, for His purpose and His glory. It is only after man has been exposed to "good and evil" that he can really understand the holiness of God. The garden and man's disobedience did not take God by surprise.

Christ's coming as a servant, makes the creation God centric, it changes everything.

In your viewpoint, will every human ever created be saved?
Raven's post prompted this question.