We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

True Grace hurts the flesh, doesn't it? No glory for a two cents' worth of effort.

Amen.

[Michael The Disciple]

Aquila said:

Now, when Satan (the accuser) points at our sin and demands God's justice, God points to the cross. The cross satisfied all of the justice of God. Jesus was indeed our propitiation.

Nice concept but you are distorting it. If that were true he would not be threatening to blot people out of the book of life because their works are not perfect. He would not be threatening others to spew them out of his mouth because they are lukewarm.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

not sure what you are talking about but false grace is found in reformed doctrine.

Greasy grace is the foundation of a salvation that can slip through your hands. Security in Christ is solid and predicated upon Christ and His propitiatory work on the cross alone. Jesus Christ being a sure foundation.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

The prodigal's father was still his father even though the prodigal left.

The Son was considered DEAD to him. You always have a covenant relationship and promise to you. THat has nothing to do with the reality of you attempting to serve to masters or have two Father's and being lost.

Here's the truth... if you must do God's will and keep His commandments... you must keep them all.

Such typical antinomian junk.

You can't pick and choose. It isn't a buffet bar.

Love fulfills the law and by following the Spirit we fulfill the law as JESUS SAID HE DID AND WE SHOULD TO. John 15:4-15.

Every minor detail has to be kept. Why? Because God is HOLY. I think if we take the position that we have to obey the Law (God's commandments) to be saved...we minimize how terrible sin really is.

You also minimize the work of the Spirt which is grace to overcome. He puts upon us nothing we cannot bear. In your doctrine you clearly say he does. His law is not burdensome.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 15:10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.
Joh 15:11 These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.
Joh 15:12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Joh 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends.
Joh 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

1Co 7:19 For neither circumcision counts for anything nor uncircumcision, but keeping the commandments of God.

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil.

You are a servant to whom you obey.

I know legalists who believe in keeping God's commandments and assume that they can live sinless lives. When I bring up a sin in their life, the typical response is, "Well, I don't think that's a 'sin' and here's why...." Also, this idea can breed a mentality wherein a person "thinks" they are obeying all of God's commandments, when in truth they are only obeying the religious dictates of their denomination or organization

.

doesn' change the truth

This leads to a religious pride and self righteousness. In Christ... we are complete, we are perfect, we are justified, we are sanctified, we are holy, we are a new creature.

Yes and if we continue walking if not no.

A "transfering" has taken place. Christ took the body of sin and all it's condemnation upon Himself, and freely imputes His righteousness and holiness to those who believe and turn to Him.

This is practical righteousness and atoning righteousness and both are based upon a continual response of faith.

Now, when Satan (the accuser) points at our sin and demands God's justice, God points to the cross. The cross satisfied all of the justice of God. Jesus was indeed our propitiation.

If sin has not been repented of satan has a case as we are not walking in faith and are guilty of sin and not covered by the blood. Unless you abide in him you are condemned of your sin. To abide is to walk in faith to his call which is his leading by the Spirit and witnessed by the Word. To become at enmity his to not abide and not be considerd is friend. Justification is a reality of God's consideration of your response to receive his grace. In responding we receive. progressive santification is in stride leads to God's consideration of your faith. You are considered in covenant and right before him. As he leads you respond in faith or lawlessness which dictates your position before him.

[Michael The Disciple]

Corvete

Someone correct me if I am wrong. I just got done reading Revelation chap 2-3 where Jesus is talking to the churches. Some of these churches had charity, faith and service, seem to be doin all the good things yet Jesus had something against them.

This is a great observation Corvete. As many years as I have been teaching this message I dont think I ever noticed it the way you brought it out. Most Churches would think they were doing fine with Yeshua if they were where the Ephesians were. Yet he was not fully satisfied with them. They were not ready for the kingdom of Heaven.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is a great observation Corvete. As many years as I have been teaching this message I dont think I ever noticed it the way you brought it out. Most Churches would think they were doing fine with Yeshua if they were where the Ephesians were. Yet he was not fully satisfied with them. They were not ready for the kingdom of Heaven.

I agree. Michael basically what you have is the called that are not chosen who are the vast minority setting the bar of what is acceptable by creating doctrines that make them acceptable. Which is to

1) change the context of grace
2) negate God's law
3) change what atonement is and how it is realized
4) make the focus of the argument when confronted with the narrow way,to focus on your inability in the flesh or lukewarmness to the Spirit we see in most of the called but not chosen. THen it makes you feel better about your position because.... well all these good people who "follow" God allgedly...they are just like you.
5) which end we see their arguments of OSAS or it's hard to lose salvation which goes directly against many are called few are chosen

[corvet786c]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is a great observation Corvete. As many years as I have been teaching this message I dont think I ever noticed it the way you brought it out. Most Churches would think they were doing fine with Yeshua if they were where the Ephesians were. Yet he was not fully satisfied with them. They were not ready for the kingdom of Heaven.

Well I wouldn't say they were not ready for the kingdom as long as they repent Jesus Said. He pointed out the obvious fornication in the church, sacrificing unto idols, and losing there first love. I take it like criticism the door was open for them to repent. Thats it, then he would not put any other burdon on them. This is even with the church who had Charity, service and faith.

[corvet786c]

Look what you guys did to my Post, you made it too long (13 pages), hehehe just kidding.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by corvet786c

Well I wouldn't say they were not ready for the kingdom as long as they repent Jesus Said. He pointed out the obvious fornication in the church, sacrificing unto idols, and losing there first love. I take it like criticism the door was open for them to repent. Thats it, then he would not put any other burdon on them. This is even with the church who had Charity, service and faith.

It was open for them. God speaks to convict us to change us. God will deal with us but it doesn't mean we are right before him. You cannot be at enmity of heart in a few things and consider your self just before God being in right at many. God can consider you just in many things but the few wil get you cast out into a state of death. The Father did not seek the prodigal outside the house. He had to realize his position and TURN. Only then when he turned did the Father recognize him and then declared him after his comments... ALIVE again.

[LUKE2447]

The invention of Imputed Righteousness
Alister McGrath in his work Iustitia Dei: A History of the Christian Doctrine of Justification explains that the primary criteria used throughout the Reformation period to distinguish Protestant from Catholic was the question of whether or not justification was "forensic" (ie used a legal, court-based, paradigm). (pg 215) McGrath explains that the concept of forensic justification was fundamentally new within the Christian theological tradition, as was the Protestant concept of separating sanctification from justification.

"Throughout the entire medieval period, justification continued to be understood as the process by which humans are made righteous, subsuming the concepts of 'sanctification' and 'regeneration'." (pg 214)
"The significance of the Protestant distinction between iustificatio and regeneratio is that a fundamental intellectual discontinuity has been introduced into the western theological tradition through the recognition of a difference, where none had previously been acknowledged to exist." (pg 215)
"The Protestant understanding of the nature of justification thus represents a theological novum".(pg. 217)
"Luther... introduced a decisive break with the western theological tradition as a whole by insisting that, through their justification, humans are intrinsically sinful yet extrinsically righteous." (pg 213, cf 217)

"Justification" had been universally understood by Christians prior to the Reformation to refer to moral transformation and the Reformers' idea of imputed righteousness was unprecedented within Christian theology.

A.J. Wallace He has a excellent book called Moral Transformation on Amazon that he just put out. Excellent mind.