We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

It's not so much the not doing them, but the fact that you don't try.

Right!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

sigh... read the book before you go off like you know all he says. I will deal with your post later as I don't have time today or probably this week.

I am not going to buy a book to read it just to get his overall perspective. He flatly said JESUS preached a different message than Paul. But if he later says that, in reality, it is only an APPARENT difference, when really Jesus was trying to say the same thing Paul said, then that is fine. The book may bring that out later. But the Bible says what the Bible says. Jesus said it is impossible for us to be saved by what WE can do. I also do not buy the concept that Jesus preached differently since the cross had not yet occurred, if that is what he ends up saying as well. I see Paul and Jesus saying the same thing. But I know there are critics out there who actually claim Jesus would never have condoned Paul's message.

Suffice it to say, Jesus preached, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible," in reference to the man being able to do what Jesus asked.

I am sure you have your own distinctive segue for what Jesus said, and I do not say that critically.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The standards of men have nothing to do with the commandments of Yeshua. If one is pursuing fellowship with him they will want his commandments. They will want him to be Lord of their life.

Amen.

However, I hear this kind of thing and I find it rather veiled. Everyone who is big on holiness will speak of God's or Christ's "commandments". Yet in 22 years of being associated with the Apostolic movement no one has actually told me what those "commandments" are. When I inquire about it I begin hearing about the church's standards regarding modesty, makeup, hair, pants, skirts, television, blah, blah, blah. Some throw in Sabbath observance, dietary standards, snake handling, and the list could go on and on. I know that Paul set "principles" regarding modesty in the Church. However, our application of those principles has become an old wineskin of Pentecostal tradition.

What exactly are the "his commandments" in your opinion?

Why do people automatically think "standards" as in some false Apostolic way? Do the people who teach Jesus did it all and theres nothing you must do but believe that, make a difference between man made false standards and the actual teachings/instructions/commandments of Yeshua the Messiah?

Jesus Christ was born "under the law". Much of what Jesus taught was applicable to His audience, the Jewish people, as it relates to being "under the law". For example, Jesus said,

Matthew 6:14-16 (King James Version)
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Here, Christ’s teaching is Law. The believer is required to forgive others in order to be forgiven. Man born again NT Christians will teach that this is a "requirment" to receive forgiveness. Yet under the covenant of Grace we see something different. Paul wrote...

Ephesians 4:32
And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Under the “law” one was commanded to forgive in order TO BE forgiven. Yet under “grace” one forgives because THEY ARE forgiven. Grace seems to turn Law on it's head. The Law states that we must obey something "to be saved". Grace state that we are to obey certain things "because we are saved". The focus isn't the work of the believer as it pertains to salvation. The focus is on the changed status of the believer by virtue of being a new creation, a new creature, having a new nature.

While everything that Jesus said and taught is “for us” and is beneficial for our studies, not everything Jesus said was “to us” in that it relates to how we must approach God. Why? Because Jesus operated under the Law. Essentially, Jesus taught a perfect interpretation of the Law to Jews while living under the Law. After the cross…many things changed. We see these changes brought to light throughout the Epistles. In many ways, Paul's teachings are far more beneficial for the NT believer than the words of Jesus. Why? Because Jesus was addressing Jews living under the Law, trying to corner them with the Law so that they might cry out and seek Him. Paul was addressing born again churches who had accepted Christ Jesus as Lord and were therefore "dead to the Law". To apply all that Jesus says and demonstrates would leave us in a legalistic mess. The New Covenant didn't begin until the cross. Consider this...

Matthew 8:1-5
1When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

That's a commandment from Jesus to a leper who was healed. Are we commanded to abide by the same law that Jesus is affirming and commanding the healed leper to obey??? If healed of uncleanness, must we offer a sacrifice in the temple and be pronounced clean by a priest? Of course not.

Understanding how to distinguish between Law and Grace in Scripture is part of rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

So again, please tell me, specifically, what are the commandments of Christ that a believer will desire to obey?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen.

However, I hear this kind of thing and I find it rather veiled. Everyone who is big on holiness will speak of God's or Christ's "commandments". Yet in 22 years of being associated with the Apostolic movement no one has actually told me what those "commandments" are.

I agree. Some people lead up to trying to get you to keep sabbath day when they use this line. They say His commandments are the Ten Commandments of Moses.

Jesus' commandments did not include sabbath day, and were beyond Law.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. Some people lead up to trying to get you to keep sabbath day when they use this line. They say His commandments are the Ten Commandments of Moses.

Jesus' commandments did not include sabbath day, and were beyond Law.

Specifically, what were Christ's commandments to us, born again believers of the New Testament church?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Revelationist

It's not so much the not doing them, but the fact that you don't try.

So we are judged by our degree of "effort"?

[corvet786c]

Man I didn't think this post would go this long!!!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Specifically, what were Christ's commandments to us, born again believers of the New Testament church?

Things like take up our crosses, deny ourselves and follow Him. Matthew 5-7 shows his commandments, indicating Moses said one thing, but he said things beyond that. But they are more like beatitudes. BE this and BE that. Commandments for the heart.

[mfblume]

What blessed me was how Moses took a multitude from Egypt to Mt.Sinai and gave ten commandments, but Jesus took a multitude to a mountain and gave a sermon with NINE beattitudes. There is not one beattitude that you can perform with your flesh. They're all HEART commandments.

[NorCal]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. Some people lead up to trying to get you to keep sabbath day when they use this line. They say His commandments are the Ten Commandments of Moses.

Jesus' commandments did include sabbath day, and were beyond Law. The Pharisees said that you were not to do anything (see list on restrictions) on the Sabbath. But Jesus took the Spirit of that Law and said "Man is Lord over the Sabbath".

Actually, Jesus' commandments fulfilled the Law. Even though we do not have every word said by Jesus, we do have the essence of what he taught, by what the Apostles (or their disciples) recorded.

We do know that Jesus taught on the Law. The Law should not be taken lightly, but we have to proper apply it to our lives and cultures. This is what Paul was explaining in a lot of his writings.

God's word is established forever. Jesus even stated that not one Ioda would be left out (Dotting of the I and crossing of the T). Heaven and Earth would pass away before that would happen. So we must be weary of brushing off the Law as not relevant to your Christian life. For the Law shows you what Sin is, so that you may over come it by the blood of the Lamb.

One thing that Jesus did say, was that because of our hearts, no one could ever fulfill the spirit of the Law. That could only be achieved by Faith in Jesus Christ, with the renewing of our minds, and being Born Again as the new man Adam.

Second, a lot of the standards of the UPC stem out of teachings of Separation. Have you ever wondered why they teach against facial hair? It was to separate ourselves from the "Jesus Movement" of the 60's (especially here in California). These were hippies and bikers, that were "preaching Jesus" but living sinful lives. Actually, quite a few of the Holiness/Oneness teachers of the Early 1900's had facial hair.

But the bible does teach, that if you are going to have facial hair, that you do not follow after the traditions of Egypt (the World), but to follow specific guidelines of the Law (especially for the Priests).

I would advise anyone that would question the Holiness standards, to search the scriptures, read the writings of previous Holiness Preachers, so that you understand where they are coming from on a specific subject. A lot of it is based on common sense and convictions by the Word and Spirit.

I would say most of them are not a Heaven or Hell issue. But one scripture comes to mind for that. Hebrews 12:1 - "1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and(A) sin which clings so closely, and(B) let us run(C) with endurance the race that is(D) set before us, 2looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith,(E) who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising(F) the shame, and(G) is seated at the right hand of the throne of God."

The key there is Weight and Sin. Things that can be a weight to us, might not be a sin, but we are still commanded to set it aside.