If A Man Die

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is from all the words of hell in both the old and the new testaments. The saints of the old did not have the insight the Lord and apostles had later in the new. It is not true that everything we need to know is found in the old. The view of soul sleep contradicts the new testament words about hell, as I have been saying.

So in other words no you cannot prove any of this from the Old Testament scripture. I know you to have great famililarity with the Bible. If there were scriptures to confirm these things you would have posted them.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So if there was greater light given in the subject of the afterlife why not the Godhead? We dont allow Trins to go there when it comes to the Godhead so why should WE do it concerning this?

Where is the rule that says the Old Testament provides all we need to know about anything? The Godhead issue is indeed further explained in the New, but not by way of trinity. God was manifest in flesh and none of that was explained in the Old.

The Old Testament gives us good sound teaching on death and resurrection. When one looks at the plain sound doctrine of the New Testament it AGREES with what Job and the other OT teachers taught.

Of course it agrees with what Job said. But Paul's words about absence from the body does not agree with your proposal of what Job said. The only way Paul and Job could agree is for the view of the body alone sleeping to be the issue.

Hopefully I will get caught up enough to present THE FOUNDATION scriptures from the prophets concerning death and life and resurrection. Then the difference will become apparent.

I still cannot see how Christ's words about Lazarus and the rich man are no more than a myth if you are correct. As Norris said, Christ never spoke stories that did not include actualities as the basis and setting for the characters who may or may not have existed. You claimed it was a metaphor. Please show me a single other instance where a metaphor was used in a parable, and not an actuality.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So in other words no you cannot prove any of this from the Old Testament scripture. I know you to have great famililarity with the Bible. If there were scriptures to confirm these things you would have posted them.

I already said the entire and overall scope of scripture that deals with hell must be seen and viewed together. Otherwise, soul sleep makes Jesus' and the apostles'words contradict the old, and the only way to deal with it is to say they used myths.

[mfblume]

Did God re-create Samuel's soul in order to talk to the witch of Endor?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael the Disciple

So if there was greater light given in the subject of the afterlife why not the Godhead? We dont allow Trins to go there when it comes to the Godhead so why should WE do it concerning this?

When we survey all Jesus' and the Apostles' words, and know they did not use non-actualities, we realize the issue of hell was incomplete in the Old.

What we are against with trinitarians is their thoughts outside both testaments not just outside the old. This view I am proposing is from the New.

[Michael The Disciple]

Lets look at what YHWH revealed to the Old Testament writers about death and life. Obviously God can give more light in the New Testament but it cannot contradict what he has given already as truth in the Old.

6:4 Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake.
6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave (Sheol) who shall give thee thanks? Psalms 6:4-5


Note here the writer asks YHWH to deliver his SOUL. Why? Because he thought he was near to death. Why would he be concerned about his soul dying if it was immortal?

Then he asks in Sheol/Hades who will give you thanks? The Psalms were looked at by Jesus as inspired of YHWH. They were not just nice songs but rather were teachings given to believers.

So Sheol/Hades was a place where no one was giving thanks to YHWH. Had the righteous been alive there they would have both remembered YHWH and been giving him thanks.

115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence. Psalms 115:17

Here we have it confirmed that the dead do not praise the Lord. Why? Because in Sheol/Hades all there is IS SILENCE. It is a place where the dead sleep metaphorically speaking. Nothing happens there.

9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, (Sheol) whither thou goest. Ecclesiastes 9:10

Here again the Spirit is revealing truth. If this had never been taught in the Old Testament scripture then we could be taught something else in the New. Yet THIS is what YHWH wanted men to believe. This is what his inspired vessels taught.

If there is no device, no wisdom, no work, or no knowledge in Sheol/Hades then obviously there are not millions of people there some praising YHWH and others burning in fire.

The great prophet Isaiah records for us the words of Hezekiah the great King who turned Israel back to YHWH.

38:18 For the grave (Sheol/Hades) cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.
38:19 The living, the living, he shall praise thee, as I do this day: the father to the children shall make known thy truth. Isaiah 38:18-19

So Hezekiah believed the same thing the other inspired OT writers believed and taught. Isaiah was his prophet and teacher so he was no doubt instrumental in the things Hezekiah believed. What was it again?

When one dies they do not celebrate YHWH. They cannot hope for his truth. It is the living that praise him and pass along THE TRUTH from Fathers to children. Hezekiah and Isaiah passed this doctrine to theirs no doubt.

How would they have reacted if one came along and told them NOT SO brothers. What you are teaching is not true. YHWH has told ME that you will find Sheol/Hades a very nice place full of activity and joy!

They would have believed he was attempting to overthrow the truth they were delivered by the Holy Spirit.

9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Ecclesiastes 9:5

They would have quickly pointed them to the scriptures that would remind them that the dead are really dead. Since there is no knowledge in Sheol/Hades where they were going they would not know any thing.

146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being.
146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
146:4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish. Psalms 146:4

Again we are taught the same truth. We praise YHWH while we have any BEING. The living have being. They exist. When men die they exist no more. Their thoughts perish which means die. How could they even know who they were in Sheol/Hades if their thoughts perished?

So in the light of the inspired revelations given to the Old Testament people what was their hope? Did they think they would never awaken from the sleep of death?

17:15 As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness. Psalms 17:15

They believed firmly in two things. First their death would be like sleeping. The writer says WHEN I AWAKE.

Note carefully there he does not say WHEN MY BODY AWAKES. No. It was WHEN I AWAKE.

If he says he would awake he knew he would be sleeping. But if he knew he would one day wake up he knew he was going to be resurrected. The day would come he would live again!

So now we have a foundation of truth from scripture that we can compare with other teachings and judge for ourselves what is being added to it whether it agrees with the revelations YHWH gave to the Prophets or not.

[Michael The Disciple]

Paul said he was willing to be absent from his body and be present with the Lord Jesus. Lets examine the all important context of this statement he wrote.

1: For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2: For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4: For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5: Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6: Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7: (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8: We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
9: Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10: For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 2 Cor. 5:1-10

The "instant Heaven" doctrine would grant mortality being swallowed up of life at the moment of death.

However the VERY SAME PAUL tells us EXACTLY when mortality will be swallowed up of life. Exactly when this MORTAL will put on IMMORTALITY
51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So Paul was giving his doctrine to the very same group of people. There could have been no misunderstanding on their part.

Immortality is given at the last trump at Christs coming.

When he says we are willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord observe the context. He says "if our bodies are dissolved" we have another body eternal in the Heavens.

It is clear from his PREVIOUS TEACHING to them that the NEW BODY OF IMMORTALITY is given not at death but at the RESURRECTION OF THE DEAD taught by him in 1 Cor. 15.

So when we are absent FROM THE BODY THAT IS DISSOLVED then (at resurrection) we can take on the new immortal body he speaks of that is eternal in the Heavens.

It cannot be overlooked that Pauls belief was that eternal life was synonomous with IMMORTALITY. To the Romans:

6: Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: Romans 2:6-7

Eternal life is the same as IMMORTALITY. Immortality is plainly given at the RESURRECTION.

52: In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54: So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55: O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 1 Cor. 15:51-55.

So the "instant Heaven" doctrine disappears from 2 Cor. 5:8 when its CONTEXT is considered.

[Michael The Disciple]

And furthermore concerning Pauls statement that he was willing to be absent from his body and present with the Lord:

Some more context.

Did Paul not teach others that it was at the second coming they would be with the Lord?

Let us see.

4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thess 4:15-17

Paul made it clear to the Thessalonians in verse 17 when both the dead and the living will BE WITH THE LORD EVER. If he tells them THEN at that time they will be with the Lord obviously he did not teach the Corinthians that THEY would be with the Lord as soon as they died.

Jesus taught EXACTLY the same thing. After all Paul was merely a disciple, a servant minister of Jesus so he simply taught what Jesus taught.

Confirmation:

John 14:1-3

4:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Here Jesus tells us WHEN WE WILL BE WITH HIM. Does he not say that WHEN HE COMES AGAIN then at that time he will RECEIVE US TO HIMSELF?
Woops! Why are so many willing to overlook what Jesus the Lord and Savior and his Apostle both said about this matter? Being charitable because I used to do the same thing.

Problem is they "lock into" certain Biblical statements at the expense of other Biblical statements.

We must bring ALL the scriptures of a topic to the table and then "rightly divide".

[Michael The Disciple]

Let us look at yet MORE context concerning Pauls writing that he was willing to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:8-11

5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
5:11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

Note the word WHEREFORE in verse nine. That means the thought from verse eight is being carried over into verse nine.

As to the statement we are willing to be absent from THIS PRESENT BODY and to be present with Jesus Christ the very next Holy Spirit inspired thought Paul brought was the day of judgment!

He tied the two thoughts together!

Being present with Jesus and getting a new body and LABORING TO BE ACCEPTED BY HIM AT JUDGMENT! Obviously if (not so dead) saints had went to be with Lord at their death in conscious bliss and happiness they would have ALREADY BEEN ACCEPTED BY HIM would they not?

And yet Paul ties the two things together. We must labor now to be ACCEPTED by Jesus Christ THEN! WHEN?
At the judgment day.

[vrblackwell]

I have not been able to find anywhere in scripture where we immortal beings. Adam was created with immortality and lost it due to sin. I only see where immortality is something we are working toward receiving again at the resurrection.

Romans 2:7
He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers.