Remitted on the Cross or not? - Page 40

TGBTG · #**391** 09-20-2011, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Why captialized "before the foundation of the world" and leave out the crux which is "IN HIM?" Our election is ONLY "IN HIM" not in some fanciful Calvinistic choosing which makes God the adminstrator of sin. If God chooses persons to go to hell then He does have pleasure in the death of the wicked.(Ezk.18:23) God does tempt men with evil. (James 1:13) Both are against His character as God. My friend you cannot have the individual election of the righteous without the individual election of the lost. Can't be a winner without a loser. Those are the facts. Now it is the WILL OF GOD for ALL men to be saved. (1Tim.2:4)
The scripture clearly teaches we are BAPTIZED INTO CHRIST. Gal.3:27, Rom.6:3

Yes, God chooses us in Christ. And Paul is telling us when God chooses us?

Question: Apostle Paul, when does God choose us in Christ?
Paul: God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world

Words in brackets are mine...
Romans 9
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (God made this statement before Jacob and Esau were born)
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? (This is our natural reaction to predestination)
God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (It does not depend on us at all)
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (God chooses to have mercy on whom he wills)
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (again, a natural reaction to predestination)
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (some vessels were made for destruction)
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (some vessels were made unto glory)
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Steve Epley · #**392** 09-20-2011, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Yes, God chooses us in Christ. And Paul is telling us when God chooses us?

Question: Apostle Paul, when does God choose us in Christ?
Paul: God chose in Christ before the foundation of the world

Words in brackets are mine...
Romans 9
10And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth

12It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated. (God made this statement before Jacob and Esau were born)
14What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? (This is our natural reaction to predestination)
God forbid.
15For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. (It does not depend on us at all)
17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. (God chooses to have mercy on whom he wills)
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (again, a natural reaction to predestination)
20Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (some vessels were made for destruction)
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (some vessels were made unto glory)
24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

When was "it is written" written about Esau & Jacob? Centuries AFTER he sold his birthright.( Mal. 1:3 ) God only said to her 'the elder shall serve the younger" NOTHING about God hating him before he was born! God hated him because he sold his birthright. Heb.12:15
Also note in verse 22............ENDURED WITH MUCH LONGSUFFERING....not that God forordained them to be vessels of wrath but AFTER he had endured with MUCH longsuffering they were fitted to destruction because they rejected His longsuffering.
You are reading these passages with calvinistic glasses. NOTHING in these passages teaches God forordained men and women to Hell without giving them a choice.

TGBTG · #**393** 09-20-2011, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

When was "it is written" written about Esau & Jacob? Centuries AFTER he sold his birthright.( Mal. 1:3 ) God only said to her 'the elder shall serve the younger" NOTHING about God hating him before he was born! God hated him because he sold his birthright. Heb.12:15
Also note in verse 22............ENDURED WITH MUCH LONGSUFFERING....not that God forordained them to be vessels of wrath but AFTER he had endured with MUCH longsuffering they were fitted to destruction because they rejected His longsuffering.
You are reading these passages with calvinistic glasses. NOTHING in these passages teaches God forordained men and women to Hell without giving them a choice.

Rom 9:14
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

So how does the question "Is there unrighteousness with God" fit into your understanding of the passage? why then would that question even arise if there is no predestination?

Steve Epley · #**394** 09-20-2011, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Rom 9:14
What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.

So how does the question "Is there unrighteousness with God" fit into your understanding of the passage? why then would that question even arise if there is no predestination?

Firstly God did not say BEFORE the children were born He hated Esau and loved Jacob. Note IT IS WRITTEN that was written by Malachi hundreds of years after they were dead and Esau had sold his birthright. (Mal.1:3 & Heb.12:15) God told her 'elder shall serve the younger.' which is entirely different. (Gen.25:22-23) Then the passage speaks of Pharaoh and him being used to fulfil God's purpose. Did God make Pharaoh evil? NO! However because he was evil and refused to change God did use him to fulfil His plan.
What Paul is saying there is NO unrighteousness with God when He fulfils His will or plan. When a person rejects God then God is justified to use him to fulfil the unseemingly part of His divine plan. But God does not make folks wicked then send them to hell for being wicked. That is against the character of God. This is Calvinism not Biblical predestination.

mfblume · #**395** 09-20-2011, 12:04 PM

God spoke of THE NATIONS TO COME FROM Jacob and Esau when he said the elder shall serve the younger, and Malachi uses that basis alone. Esau never personally served Jacob. It is NATIONS that are predestined alone.

Timmy · #**396** 09-20-2011, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Firstly God did not say BEFORE the children were born He hated Esau and loved Jacob. Note IT IS WRITTEN that was written by Malachi hundreds of years after they were dead and Esau had sold his birthright. (Mal.1:3 & Heb.12:15) God told her 'elder shall serve the younger.' which is entirely different. (Gen.25:22-23) Then the passage speaks of Pharaoh and him being used to fulfil God's purpose. Did God make Pharaoh evil? NO! However because he was evil and refused to change God did use him to fulfil His plan.
What Paul is saying there is NO unrighteousness with God when He fulfils His will or plan. When a person rejects God then God is justified to use him to fulfil the unseemingly part of His divine plan. But God does not make folks wicked then send them to hell for being wicked. That is against the character of God. This is Calvinism not Biblical predestination.

Is it against God's character to curse a fig tree because it was not bearing fruit, out of season?