Would You Ever Challenge Your Pastor?

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Jay

Being the son of a pastor, I can say what has frustrates the pastor and his wife more than almost anything else, are people who are unhappy, but act as if the pastor should know by osmosis what the problem is and fix it. And if the unhappy people are told to talk to the pastor, often they respod that it would not make a difference anyway. That is nothing more than a lying excuse to justify their pride and justify their hurt feelings. The fact is that most pastors are willing, able, and ready to hear what their saints are feeling and thinking.

Many times, people attempt to approach the pastor at the wrong time or in the wrong way (I have been guilty of this, and we both confessed it to each other and resolved the issue). Do not approach the pastor with it after he has just preached his guts out and is exhausted. Nor approach him if he has a lot going on at that point. The best thing to do is make an appointment to see him, and treat him the way you might if you were approaching your employer (I am talking about using a respectful tone, gestures, etc.). Be sensitive, you do not know what he might be dealing with. If he has reactions that are out of character for him, extend him grace and realize that he is under a great amount of pressure (he may be bivocational and be working shifts that do not allow him much rest, he must be prepared to preach every service, he is often doing much of the maintenance around the church, he has to deal with every member of the congregation, and maintain a relationship with his wife and family, and you never know what else may be happening behind the scenes).


To put it simply, be sweet to your pastor. He probably could use it.

Great post, great advice, I totally agree.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jay

Being the son of a pastor, I can say what has frustrates the pastor and his wife more than almost anything else, are people who are unhappy, but act as if the pastor should know by osmosis what the problem is and fix it. And if the unhappy people are told to talk to the pastor, often they respod that it would not make a difference anyway. That is nothing more than a lying excuse to justify their pride and justify their hurt feelings. The fact is that most pastors are willing, able, and ready to hear what their saints are feeling and thinking.

Many times, people attempt to approach the pastor at the wrong time or in the wrong way (I have been guilty of this, and we both confessed it to each other and resolved the issue). Do not approach the pastor with it after he has just preached his guts out and is exhausted. Nor approach him if he has a lot going on at that point. The best thing to do is make an appointment to see him, and treat him the way you might if you were approaching your employer (I am talking about using a respectful tone, gestures, etc.). Be sensitive, you do not know what he might be dealing with. If he has reactions that are out of character for him, extend him grace and realize that he is under a great amount of pressure (he may be bivocational and be working shifts that do not allow him much rest, he must be prepared to preach every service, he is often doing much of the maintenance around the church, he has to deal with every member of the congregation, and maintain a relationship with his wife and family, and you never know what else may be happening behind the scenes).


To put it simply, be sweet to your pastor. He probably could use it.

I never felt I could approach my pastor about anything. Looking back, I probably could have but did not feel that way at the time. Was it my fault that I felt he was unapproachable or could he have made himself seem more approachable?

[Jay]

I would say that if he was available, it was your fault that you did not make the attempt to approach him. That is not to say that he might (not knowing your former pastor) have been able to appear more approachable, but it is possible that he never gave it a thought. Preachers, just like everyone else, will act in ways that they are most comfortable with. If that means he is more introverted, he might not realize that he comes across as unapproachable. So much of it depends on the personality and temperament involved, that it can be very difficult to say who much blame lies in any one direction. Probably there is enough to go around liberally. (Did I just say a bad word there? )

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Jay

I would say that if he was available, it was your fault that you did not make the attempt to approach him. That is not to say that he might (not knowing your former pastor) have been able to appear more approachable, but it is possible that he never gave it a thought. Preachers, just like everyone else, will act in ways that they are most comfortable with. If that means he is more introverted, he might not realize that he comes across as unapproachable. So much of it depends on the personality and temperament involved, that it can be very difficult to say who much blame lies in any one direction. Probably there is enough to go around liberally. (Did I just say a bad word there? )

The point is not to criticize or pass blame. The point was to counter what you had said:

if the unhappy people are told to talk to the pastor, often they respod that it would not make a difference anyway. That is nothing more than a lying excuse to justify their pride and justify their hurt feelings

The point was that what you said about those who don't approach the pastor because they never felt comfortable doing so was just WRONG. They are not liars, or prideful, or just trying to justify their hurt feelings... (And for such to come from the persepective of a pastors son and to have a pastor in agreement... well its no wonder we never felt comfortable going to the pastor in the first place).

[The Lemon]

I am impressed CC1! I agree, motivation and attitude say a whole lot about a "challenge". Personally, if there is some "issue" over doctrine etc., I would think it best to: A - wait until after service; B - Speak to the Pastor alone, do NOT make a scene; C - Instead of approaching the situation with an offensive posture, simply pose your concerns in question form, rather then make statements. Try to learn why he teaches a particular thing and where the application of principle comes from.

Lastly, if all discussions prove to be unfruitful, you need to first pray and seek God for direction, ask the Lord, what is His will, either to stay (submit anyway), or go. If you feel released, then go and go in peace. If God says stay, then basically you need to submit your will. That is my 2-cents.

All to often today folks are very quick to make up their own mind, never ask God, and just flippantly make decisions that could not only effect them spiritually, but also their families, and the congregation as well. While I don't support false doctrine, there certainly is a right and wise way to handle issues, and most importantly, as Christians, we must seek the mind and will of Christ...

[Jay]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The point is not to criticize or pass blame. The point was to counter what you had said:



The point was that what you said about those who don't approach the pastor because they never felt comfortable doing so was just WRONG. They are not liars, or prideful, or just trying to justify their hurt feelings... (And for such to come from the persepective of a pastors son and to have a pastor in agreement... well its no wonder we never felt comfortable going to the pastor in the first place).

I am sorry, that is why a person should always proofread their works multiple times to catch themselves. As I was writing, I had in mind a certain situation where the people acted exactly as I described. And I have had a number of people who were 'unhappy' tell me and others the same thing, and it generally happened right before the said some very nasty things and left. I should have said 'some people' instead of having my post read that all unhappy people were that way. Please forgive me.

[Jay]

Does it not prove that some of my earlier statements have a certain amount of validity? Also, I posted that on very little sleep, or I might of caught that. No excuses...I hit with a broad brush. Sorry.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Dante

Assume you are listening to your pastor preach, and then suddenly he makes a statement that you believe is contrary to the actual meaning of scripture (though he uses scripture to justify his position and you have scripture to justify the position you have, which is completely opposite of his/hers). You may be just as well informed of a position in which your pastor is taking a completely opposite stand on, but you feel he is in error.

1. Do you politely schedule a meeting with the pastor and discuss the disagreement over the teaching and try to come to a mutual understanding without trying to convert one another to each others' position?

2. Do you ignore it, and let it go, and pray that God would correct him/her assuming you yourself are not the one truly in error?

3. Do you leave the church without any explanation, because you can't believe that someone would be so ignorant as to make non-biblical remarks from the pulpit?

4. Or option #4 (fill in the blank how you would hand it if the aforementioned options are not feasible to you)

I chose option 4. After much prayer, I spoke with my Pastor. Then I prayed more and waited for more time to go by to ensure that our disagreement wasn't purely semantics or a misunderstanding. Then, I spoke with him once again about the disagreement, to ensure that we were in disagreement. Prayed some more, and then left that church.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Dante

Assume you are listening to your pastor preach, and then suddenly he makes a statement that you believe is contrary to the actual meaning of scripture (though he uses scripture to justify his position and you have scripture to justify the position you have, which is completely opposite of his/hers). You may be just as well informed of a position in which your pastor is taking a completely opposite stand on, but you feel he is in error.

1. Do you politely schedule a meeting with the pastor and discuss the disagreement over the teaching and try to come to a mutual understanding without trying to convert one another to each others' position?

2. Do you ignore it, and let it go, and pray that God would correct him/her assuming you yourself are not the one truly in error?

3. Do you leave the church without any explanation, because you can't believe that someone would be so ignorant as to make non-biblical remarks from the pulpit?

4. Or option #4 (fill in the blank how you would hand it if the aforementioned options are not feasible to you)

I had a pastor who had a terrible predilection for making false prophecies and also attempting to back up his own private interpretations with statements like, "God told me (the 'correct interpretation') and I looked it up in the Greek and found it to be so."

Nonsense. He couldn't even read a Greek comic book, let alone do an exegesis of the NT from the original.

I privately and politely questioned him to try and at least see where he was coming from on any number of occasions, but this is the kind of guy that if any saint in the church ever asked a simple question he would immediately rise up against them in the most self-defensive manner.

Simply put, the guy was a fraud and he knew it.

When he and his wife fell into open sin I pleaded with them to "give your lives back to Jesus Christ!" I was serving as their Assistant at the time. They fired me for "hindering revival" (we were in 'revival' services with a known adulterer - a UPC pastor - the meetings were scheduled specifically to provide cover for this guy after he was caught with his secretary in our district).

Another reason I was let go was because they complained "you talk to us like we're sinners..." Well, duh!

Bottom line: If you can't even talk to your pastor about the Bible in a friendly manner, there's a good chance that he's trying to hide a lot more than just his own Bible illiteracy.

Good pastors love the Word of God and they love the people they pastor. That love will smooth over any of the typical doctrinal disagreements - 1 John 4:18. If all you are facing is fear and defensiveness, then don't expect love. You're better off if you "leave the church without any explanation" because they're fixing to throw you out.

Ever compare the typical UPCI manner of "pastoring" and "discipleship" with the way 'coon hunters breed their coon dogs? "BLAM!" goes the shotgun. Time for a "cull."

The pastor and his buddies are fornicating and covering it up and they have actually killed an innocent pastor from a neighboring district in their fooling around. Anyone who knows these types of secrets... "BLAM! Time for another cull." It's probably best to just quietly leave.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I chose option 4. After much prayer, I spoke with my Pastor. Then I prayed more and waited for more time to go by to ensure that our disagreement wasn't purely semantics or a misunderstanding. Then, I spoke with him once again about the disagreement, to ensure that we were in disagreement. Prayed some more, and then left that church.

It occurs to me that I am bringing a lot of my own baggage to this discussion (and AFF in general) lately. It must be the holidays. I have to relive some rather painful stuff every year and then I am forced to sit quietly by while rank sinners (read: "Holiness Preachers") are publicly praised by local and district leaders - even national leaders, knowing full well that most of those heaping the praise were fully cognizant of the crimes.

I pray that your path is rewarding for you, Jermyn. Life really is too short to live with a bunch of nonsense, biting your tongue all of the time. Though, I trust that the pastor you left was kind and well intentioned. Why these guys; guys who would otherwise be truly great men, feel the need to kowtow constantly to the angry rabble within the org is beyond me.

I have family and friends who have recently left the same church as you did (if that's the church you're talking about). These are "6th Generation" Apostolics, FWIW. It's funny. They're adopting a "lifestyle" consistent with the "1st through 4th Generation" of Apostolics and thus, are being pushed out of a self proclaimed "Apostolic Church."

They're dropping the man-made "standards" that some of their grandparents adopted. For this, they too must find another church and another pastor.