Timmy... don't you know the Bible? This is a dumb question. You're wrongfully accusing God. I'll share my perspective...
When God led Israel out of Egypt He protected them supernaturally. When Israel entered the promised land He protected them and subdued their enemies before them supernaturally. It wasn't until after they became a nation that something changed... the people wanted a human king. God warned them through the prophet that a human king would tax them and send their sons and daughters into war. They wanted a king anyway. As soon as they got a human king we see Israel increasingly leaning on their own military might and prowess. We also see them drift from God and sink into the mire of sin and idolatry. As they departed from trusting God... God's hand began to withdraw from them. Soon... military might was all Israel was left to depend on. God promised to fight their battles and protect them... IF THEY RETURNED TO HIM AND TRUSTED HIM. But they refused. The prophets repeatedly rebuke them for this. The prophets also rebuke them for not doing what God said was necessary while trusting in their military might. It was all bad all around because Israel wanted to be a nation like every other nation... but with God's assistance. God tolerated this non-sense until He began sending foreign powers to dominate them and bring them to their knees in repentance. In the NT we see that God sent the Messiah and as a last act of defiance against God's rulership... they murdered Him upon a cross. God then swiftly judged the nation, destroying it through the Romans in AD 70.
The stories of the OT are not easily understood by people who don't understand the over all theme of the Bible. Much of the war and bloodshed seen in the Bible is the result of Israel not trusting God and rebelling against Him as their King. God tolerated their choice, tried to help them, and even gave them instructions on what to do on several occasions, each occasion proving that they were NOT in the will of God.
You're wrongfully accusing God Timmy. And why would victors write a holy book that only accentuates their spiritual failure as they grew in power through military conquest???
Numbers 31 and many other similar stories were centuries before there was a king over Israel.
What am I accusing God of? I merely related what God is said to have done (ordered Israel to slaughter people), and wondered if there wasn't another way He could have accomplished His goals for His people.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Numbers 31 and many other similar stories were centuries before there was a king over Israel.
What am I accusing God of? I merely related what God is said to have done (ordered Israel to slaughter people), and wondered if there wasn't another way He could have accomplished His goals for His people.
Again, you're not telling the full story. The first verse sets the context:
Numbers 31:1-2
1 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.”
May I ask for your highly intelligent explanation of what the Midianites did to the nation of Israel to warrant such a reprisal?
C'mon Timmy.... share with us the horrendous events that led to what Midian did to the Israelites and thus provoked the Israelites to meet them with military reprisal.
Is Numbers 31 tragic? YES. Is it horrible? YES. Are the events horrendous??? YES.
But... so was OUR dropping the bomb on Negasaki and Hiroshima, burning the very shadows of men, women, and children into the walls of their own homes just prior to them being vaporized. We should weep over having to have had to resort to that action. However, we should always remember historical facts...
Would we have had to do that if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor??? No.
Is Numbers 31 tragic? YES. Is it horrible? YES. Are the events horrendous??? YES.
But... so was OUR dropping the bomb on Negasaki and Hiroshima, burning the very shadows of men, women, and children into the walls of their own homes just prior to them being vaporized. We should weep over having to have had to resort to that action. However, we should always remember historical facts...
Would we have had to do that if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor??? No.
Think people, think!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Is Numbers 31 tragic? YES. Is it horrible? YES. Are the events horrendous??? YES.
But... so was OUR dropping the bomb on Negasaki and Hiroshima, burning the very shadows of men, women, and children into the walls of their own homes just prior to them being vaporized. We should weep over having to have had to resort to that action. However, we should always remember historical facts...
Would we have had to do that if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor??? No.
Think people, think!
We who? Pardon me but were YOU even alive when that happened? I know I would never have consented to something that horrible and am certainly not going to take any credit for it by using terms like 'we'.
I believe the kind of 'biblical' garbage we have been discussing here is in large part what makes people believe that they can enslave other humans, judge other humans, kill other humans, and God can and will be on thier side for it. I do not support that, period. It is NOT what Jesus taught. There are many Christians who are pacifists, as was Jesus Christ. While I am not willing to go so far as to let someone come on my land to rape, pillage and kill my family I am at heart a pacifist also. I do believe in self defense in extream situations, however, I am not ever going to be the agressor in a confilct, it is against my religion.
Bombing Japan did not give back the lives taken at Pearl Harbor, it simply added to the overall horror by exponentially adding to innocents slaughtered.
I can not worship, love or even respect a God who would have His hand in that. Fortunately, I believe that my God does not. His name is Yesuha the Annointed One. You may call Him Jesus Christ.
Last edited by Titus2woman; 03-13-2012 at 10:27 AM.
C'mon Timmy, you're acting like this was a horrendous event perpetrated by Israel and accredited to God. Can you tell us what the Midianites did to warrant such a reprisal? Technically, it's more henious than what Sodom desired to do to Lot and his household. Please enlighten us so that the reader can get the full story here.
Again, you're not telling the full story. The first verse sets the context:
Numbers 31:1-2
1 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Avenge the people of Israel on the Midianites. Afterward you shall be gathered to your people.”
May I ask for your highly intelligent explanation of what the Midianites did to the nation of Israel to warrant such a reprisal?
C'mon Timmy.... share with us the horrendous events that led to what Midian did to the Israelites and thus provoked the Israelites to meet them with military reprisal.
OK, if the motivation matters (and I'm not saying it doesn't), let's look at it. The only incident I know of that specifically involves Midianites, previous to the battle, is this:
6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
But apparently, Moab is "associated with" the Midianites, and in that same chapter, we find Israelites fornicating with Moabite women and worshiping their gods. They paid for their sin with decapitation, and their severed heads were put on display in the sun, to turn God's anger away.
This was good enough to appease God, for the Israelites' sin, and it goes on to say that many of the Midianites were slain, but apparently it wasn't good enough, yet. So there's your motivation for the genocide (saving the virgin girls, of course).
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
We who? Pardon me but were YOU even alive when that happened? I know I would never have consented to something that horrible and am certainly not going to take any credit for it by using terms like 'we'.
I believe the kind of 'biblical' garbage we have been discussing here is in large part what makes people believe that they can enslave other humans, judge other humans, kill other humans, and God can and will be on thier side for it. I do not support that, period. It is NOT what Jesus taught. There are many Christians who are pacifists, as was Jesus Christ. And while I am not willing to go so far as to let someone come on my land to rape, pillageand kill. I do believe in self defense in extream situations. However I am not ever going to be the agressor in a confilct, it is against my religion.
Bombing Japan did not give back the lives taken at Pearl Harbor, it simply added to the overall horror by exponentially adding to innocents slaughtered.
I can not worship, love or even respect a God who would have His hand in that. Fortunately I believe that my God does not, His name is Yesuha the Annointed One. You may call Him Jesus.
Bombing Japan was to cripple them from continuing the war... and perhaps even using nukes against us. Remember, the Axis powers were desperately trying to beat us to the bomb. Had we not bombed Japan... you and I would be speaking Japanese or German, and we'd most likely not be allowed to post here. I too am not big on war or violence. I advocate Christian pacifism if at all possible. But the point is... naming this tragedy in Scripture without explaning the events leading up to it is like merely accusing America of dropping the bomb on Japan without discussing Pearl Harbor or Japan's continuing advance in the Pacific.
If you understand the Israel was engaged in taking the promised land at that time. In my reading a little bit ago I found that they were actually forbidden to attack the Moabites. You'll note that the Moabites and the Midianites formed an alliance. Balak tried to get Balaam to prophesy against Israel because he feared Israel. Balaam failed and then a plot was put together to get Israel to offend God. They enlisted the women of Moab (most were married) at the very threat of their lives to seduce the Israelite forces (who hadn't seen their wives in quite a long time) into adultery. The Moabite/Medianite women even led them into worshipping their god while doing it. The Moabite/Medianite women were forced to do this at the threat of their lives and/or the lives of their children... all with the civil authority of Midian/Moab supporting the strategy. They embraced the act as an act of loyalty to their nation. God's judgment fell on Israel for doing so and nearly thousands perished and executions were ordered (primarily the men who were part of the adultery). Then God ordered Moses to send Israel into battle against the Midianites to avenge the nation's henious use of women, sex, and religion in warfare. Afterwards the Israelites conquered those responsible. The Israelite soldiers however, brought back the women who had seduced them (demonstrating their desire to keep them as sex slaves). Moses ordered that the women be executed for their being willing to comply with such a horrendous act of war against God's people. The smaller children spared (primarily female) were then assigned to Israelite families and the women of marrying age who were virgins and not guilty of any crime were married to Isrealite men to not only provide them room and board, but to assimilate them into Israelite society (as was custom among prisoners of war in that era).
That's what happened according to my memory of reading the events that transpired.
Never before in biblical history had sex been used as a weapon on such a wide scale and costing more lives. The act is more henious than that seen in the story of Sodom and Gommorah. It was an unprovoked seduction into the very depths of sin by a nation that was under no threat from the Israelites.
Really? And then what do we do with "I am God, I change not"? I do not believe that this kind of behavior could have ever been acceptable to a loving, moral being.
I am much more inclined to believe that the Bible is corrupt. That it has been used to further an agenda and altered at the whim of man from time immemorial. Anyone who can not see the the hundreds and even thousands of discrepancies in our modern versions of 'the Bible' lives in denial, IMO. I am sure that that Israel's elite had an agenda that included wanting to be seen as fierce and supported by the most high God in their ferocity and so wrote their stories so slanted in some cases.
I see that God does not today keep anyone from corrupting His 'word' and I have no reason to believe that he did so in the past either. Where we ever got the idea that there is an 'incorruptible' book I am not sure. I would guess that it comes from the same place as nonexistent concepts like the immortal soul, man's imagination.
I believe that a lot of what Jesus Christ spent his time trying to tell us was that traditions, writings (even ancient dusty ones), leaderships opinions, etc. really don't matter in the same way that living this life fully engaged and loving and helping humanity does.
I have no problem admitting that I have never given stories like this more than a cursory glance. I find them repulsive and not a reflection of the God that I know and love intimately at all. I was grossed out and completely freaked by reading them here. Again ewwww....
Not trying to rock anyone's boat, just being honest...
In the past, I've said the same things as you're saying, God can't be like that, the bible is corrupt, Israel was doing these horrible things and attributing them to God, ect. The conflict in the middle east prompted me to reconsider the why's of the OT stories and I found a new understanding of what was going on back then, placing myself in that era of time, living as they were living.
Using America as an example, time and time again if America had not entered into conflict with other nations, America would no longer be America. As bad as war is, it's necessary at times in order to protect the existence and values of a nation, a people. So it was in OT times, war was common, the mindset of the people was different than today and extreme measures were used in order to never have to face their foe again. Completely destroy them, wipe them off the face of the earth, and then you'll have peace.
It's not so much as God changing, as it is society's changing and God interacts differently with them.
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