Planned Parenthood Plans 40 Days of Prayer (L)

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

And I you. Do you live in a bubble frog?

Probably. I would be happy to be proven wrong. Let's start in America since we are most familiar with it. Have I been wrong in thinking that burial or cremation with some kind of a service was the typical american way of handling our dead?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I think you mistook my position. My position on this issue regarding burial hasn't been that by showing a miscarried baby is treated as less than human means it isn't a human. That's not the point I was making. The point I was making was that abortions stem from society viewing a miscarried baby as less than human and all these practices where a miscarried baby is treated differently than a human being reinforce and propogate that belief.

I don't agree.

I have also noticed how you neatly avoid every answering any of my direct questions while I answer yours, even giving them serious time and deliberation to be sure that I am not just speaking from a made up mind.

No frog, you are not making serious attempt for honest dialog... and that bothers me because I believe you have a worthwhile view to share as it is one that is espoused by a huge majority of people.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

You have started to contradict yourself frog. There are USUALLY no remains. That does not stop someone from having a funeral if they desire... when people die in manners where remains are not left one can still have a funeral with an empty casket representing the decedent or a memorial service or NOT... It's up to the families. Most choose to grieve privately for babies lost early in pregnancy as a public announcement would often go to those who did not even know they had ever been pregnant. Also sadly women still feel some shame at losing a pregnancy... many will ask what they 'did wrong to cause it'... So it's not something they want to share with everyone.

How is it that you are judging others grief or using it as a yardstick to try to prove that a fetus is not a human? This is twisting off into something bizarre and convoluted. I have to concur with AYR that you are simply willfully deluded on this topic. So peace out frog.

I must say you said very well a couple of points that I wanted to make... just because there is a grave, or a ceremony, doesn't mean there are remains. But by that same token, just because there isn't a ceremony or remains at a marked grave, does not mean that there wasn't any mourning, or grieving over the loss of someone. That pregnancy, is a very intimate, and in the first few weeks, extremely private thing for the mom and the dad, and very few others. Therefore, their mourning is going to be much more private of the loss (remains or not), than with a family member who has interacted with the whole world for years.

And you are so right about the unfortunate stigma some women still feel with miscarriages and still born births. I know of at least 2 women that went through such guilt, and even shame regarding their miscarriages. The husband wanted to at least have some type of memorial, but the poor mom just felt like it was a confirmation of some sort of shortcoming or disappointment at her hands.

The argument of saying the lack of public memorials to miscarriages and still borns made by our fellow poster is frankly a straw man argument.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

A human is a human from it's inception in the mind of God even prior to it's conception here on earth. I believe that God knew each of us in His foreknowledge... So do you also not believe in an omniscient, omnipotent God, frog?

I would be interested in you addressing this please frog?

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

I must say you said very well a couple of points that I wanted to make... just because there is a grave, or a ceremony, doesn't mean there are remains. But by that same token, just because there isn't a ceremony or remains at a marked grave, does not mean that there wasn't any mourning, or grieving over the loss of someone. That pregnancy, is a very intimate, and in the first few weeks, extremely private thing for the mom and the dad, and very few others. Therefore, their mourning is going to be much more private of the loss (remains or not), than with a family member who has interacted with the whole world for years.

And you are so right about the unfortunate stigma some women still feel with miscarriages and still born births. I know of at least 2 women that went through such guilt, and even shame regarding their miscarriages. The husband wanted to at least have some type of memorial, but the poor mom just felt like it was a confirmation of some sort of shortcoming or disappointment at her hands.

The argument of saying the lack of public memorials to miscarriages and still borns made by our fellow poster is frankly a straw man argument.

My Lord, blow the trumpets! Bro. Robbins and I have agreed. OH HAPPY DAY!

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I don't agree.

I have also noticed how you neatly avoid every answering any of my direct questions while I answer yours, even giving them serious time and deliberation to be sure that I am not just speaking from a made up mind.

No frog, you are not making serious attempt for honest dialog... and that bothers me because I believe you have a worthwhile view to share as it is one that is espoused by a huge majority of people.

Really?

A huge majority believe an unborn baby is not a human being?

A huge majority believe abortion should be legal in all trimesters?

I take it that is the frog's position.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Really?

A huge majority believe an unborn baby is not a human being?

A huge majority believe abortion should be legal in all trimesters?

I take it that is the frog's position.

I understood frogs position as abortion becoming progressively more distasteful but perhaps not completely illegal at more advanced gestational age. If that is correct then I would say yes they do. Our laws reflect our beliefs as a society for the most part. The majority of people want abortion to be legal and so it is. The majority might place restrictions on gestational age, etc. but since they can't agree, and many see either;

a. The fetus not human until some particular gestational age (frogs position?)
b. The interference of government in private matters as worse than abortion (Aquila's position-loosely)
c. Some other issue that keeps them from being able to be effective or united

We are left with a completely ineffective, very loosely bound group who would change the law. Discussions like this help people to first and foremost identify exactly where they stand on these issues and also help them decide if they could bend a little in order to become part of a cohesive force to slow or stop the current rate of convenience pregnancy terminations, which are by far the majority.

Do you believe that people in the U.S. in general do not support abortion Hoovie?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I would be interested in you addressing this please frog?

I believe in God most the time. His characteristics and qualities I couldn't begin to tell you about.

When does God view human life as beginning? I don't know, he never stated his view.

God foreknew Jesus prior to him coming to earth. Does that mean Jesus was human before he came to earth? I don't think so and i don't think you think that either. That means foreknowledge of a human is not evidence of when something becomes human.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

I understood frogs position as abortion becoming progressively more distasteful but perhaps not completely illegal at more advanced gestational age. If that is correct then I would say yes they do. Our laws reflect our beliefs as a society for the most part. The majority of people want abortion to be legal and so it is. The majority might place restrictions on gestational age, etc. but since they can't agree, and many see either;

a. The fetus not human until some particular gestational age (frogs position?)
b. The interference of government in private matters as worse than abortion (Aquila's position-loosely)
c. Some other issue that keeps them from being able to be effective or united

We are left with a completely ineffective, very loosely bound group who would change the law. Discussions like this help people to first and foremost identify exactly where they stand on these issues and also help them decide if they could bend a little in order to become part of a cohesive force to slow or stop the current rate of convenience pregnancy terminations, which are by far the majority.

Do you believe that people in the U.S. in general do not support abortion Hoovie?

That definetely seems to be my and societys opinion.

[bbyrd009]

I'm curious if the $ value of a fetus has been addressed here, especially in the age of stem cells, and I wonder if T2W might give us any insight into that, as a med prof? Ty