Why is endorsing gay marriage/civil unions bad?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

I think you're missing the point here. Homosexuals are already practicing perversion. This debate has nothing at all to do with preventing homosexuals from practicing a perverse act.



Personally, I don't believe that polygamy should be illegal, either. In MANY cultures and in many eras polygamy has been not only acceptable but encouraged. I don't believe it's the ideal, but I certainly don't believe it's "perversion" on the scale of homosexuality or bestiality. If it is, then we'll have to lump a lot of Bible heroes in with gays and horse-lovers. I'm strongly opposed to that.

There are many things in the OT that cannot be pointed to as endorsements for Christians. Without exception you will not find a case in the OT where polygamy worked out well for all of the parties involved. Jesus sets the record straight in the NT in which he states "from the beginning it was not so." The beginning was one man, one woman. They became one flesh: a spiritual union.

If we don't uphold the ideal, then we as a nation become no different than the very nations of people God destroyed for their manifold perversions and violence.

The idea that our country would have "evolved" (more like devolved) to this probaby never entered the thoughts of our Founding Fathers. I don't believe they had any of these things in mind when they declared liberty and freedom for the USA. Those men were God fearing and Bible believing.

True liberty has its limits. Otherwise we have anarchy.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

There are many things in the OT that cannot be pointed to as endorsements for Christians. Without exception you will not find a case in the OT where polygamy worked out well for all of the parties involved. Jesus sets the record straight in the NT in which he states "from the beginning it was not so." The beginning was one man, one woman. They became one flesh: a spiritual union.

Jesus said that from the beginning it "wasn't so" with regards to divorce. Context bro. God Himself states that he "gave" David wives. And we also know that many monogamous marriages don't work out. Polygamous marriages face many of the same problems... it's just more complicated because more people are involved. So, it's not really a good idea in our day and age. But it's not "sin". Else God sinned by giving David wives.

If we don't uphold the ideal, then we as a nation become no different than the very nations of people God destroyed for their manifold perversions and violence.

Bro... this is the NT. God isn't dealing with nations. He's dealing with individual hearts and souls among all the nations of the world. God will deal with all souls on judgment day. Do you think Katrina was a judgment from God? To you think the WTC attack was a judgment from God? Do you think those who perished when the towers fell were more wicked than us?

America... we massacared the Native American. We fought to protect a brutal institution of slavery and based almost half of our economy on it. We institutionalized racism. Affairs, perversions, and inscest went unreported for two or three generations with the abused being punished if they accused someone and couldn't provide absolute PROOF. Men were legally permitted to beat their wives with rods no thicker than their own thumbs ("rule of thumb"). And in spite of all of that... God blessed our nation. Why? Because of the church... not because of American society.

The idea that our country would have "evolved" (more like devolved) to this probaby never entered the thoughts of our Founding Fathers. I don't believe they had any of these things in mind when they declared liberty and freedom for the USA. Those men were God fearing and Bible believing.

Many of the Founding Fathers saw little problem with owning slaves. What they thought is immaterial. The question is, What is the law?

True liberty has its limits. Otherwise we have anarchy.

The Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, Section 1:

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

That's not anarchy bro. States cannot enforce any law that abridges the priviledges or immunities of citizens of the United States. The way I look at it... if what you want to do with your life doesn't endanger my life, my liberties, or my property... have at it buddy.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

For the most part, most Christians equate state permission (license) to marry legally as the only recognized marriage. Some just cannot differentiate between the act of marriage in God's eyes verses the state's legal permission/license to marry.

My grandmother was married twice and both marriages ended very badly and both divorces were way to expensive. She swore she'd never marry again. She met my step-grandfather and they were together over 37 years before his passing. They were monogamous, wore rings, called each other "husband" and "wife", and attended a little Church of Christ. Nobody knew they weren't "officially married" until his passing. My grandmother stated that she didn't need a "peice of paper" to know they were married. Were they married in God's eyes?

In 2010 nearly 45% of reporting house holds were unmarried couples and all statistics point to the numbers rising. People are increasingly loosing faith in the "institution of marriage" as defined by the government. These people just want to love one another and have a family. They don't relish government intrusion or regulations. Legally marriage as it is defined in our culture today is very hard to dissolve and is VERY expensive on all sides, especially a man's. Never before in human history has government forced such a high risk of financial loss upon men and women. Perhaps GOVERNMENT is the problem. Maybe the government should get out of regulating the personal lives of citizens. Perhaps those pastors who are taking a stand against couples getting marriage licenses and are just pronouncing them man and wife have the right idea.

For example, I know a married couple that split up. One abandoned the other and moved out, got their own place, and began rebuilding their own life. However, neither of them were legally divorced. One consulted attorneys but they were too expensive. The financial burden of living alone, paying the bills, caring for the kids, and meeting all the needs of the broken household was far too much to fork over between $2000 to $6000 dollars. One attorney offered a "payment plan" but wanted $1000 up front. And all of this is what was faced BEFORE the divorce officially began. You'd be amazed at how many people are unable to afford a divorce. The expense is crushing. When the divorce can cost between $1000 to $6000 dollars easy, and the outcome can cost a man over a fourth of his income... is it any wonder more and more Americans are opting not to officially marry? Again, the government and the courts have made marriage a three ring circus.

Here's an interesting article:

http://hushmoney.org/MarriageLicense-5.htm

Now, I don't know about advocating this position... but ... they make some interesting points.

[aegsm76]

Aquila - so you believe the government should allow multiple partner and same-sex marriages?

What do you believe the age should be at which marriage should be permitted?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Aquila - so you believe the government should allow multiple partner and same-sex marriages?

What do you believe the age should be at which marriage should be permitted?

I am increasingly embracing the idea behind the privatization of marriage. I don't believe the GUBBERMENT is the final arbitrator of man's liberty.

I'd say that the age of consent to marry should be no younger than 16 with a parent's permission to marry.

This pastor makes some excellent points in the following article:

http://hushmoney.org/MarriageLicense-5.htm

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Aquila - so you believe the government should allow multiple partner and same-sex marriages?

Does the "government" have the right to define marriage? This whole debate exists because the government tried to meddle and prevent mixed marriages by requiring marriage licenses. Therefore, the problem exists because of the government's intrusion into the private lives of citizens. Had they left well enough alone, I doubt society would do more than laugh at a same gender couple claiming to be married.

Where does the "GOVERNMENT" get the authority to offer a "license" to marry? By doing so, they are implying that any marriage that the government doesn't license is illegal... you don't have the right to marry who you choose without the "governments" blessing. It makes your marriage a state institution and extends the government's power into your private life and the lives of your children. How many faithful fathers have been severely burned in a divorce because of the government's statutes on divorce?

Frankly, marriage has increasingly become an exploitive and often oppressive institution since the government got it's hands on it.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

Aquila - so you believe the government should allow multiple partner and same-sex marriages?

Does the "government" have the right to define marriage? This whole debate exists because the government tried to meddle and prevent mixed marriages by requiring marriage licenses. Therefore, the problem exists because of the government's intrusion into the private lives of citizens. Had they left well enough alone, I doubt society would do more than laugh at a same gender couple claiming to be married.

Where does the "GOVERNMENT" get the authority to offer a "license" to marry? By doing so, they are implying that any marriage that the government doesn't license is illegal... you don't have the right to marry who you choose without the "governments" blessing. It makes your marriage a state institution and extends the government's power into your private life and the lives of your children. How many faithful fathers have been severely burned in a divorce because of the government's statutes on divorce?

Frankly, marriage has increasingly become an exploitive and often oppressive institution since the government got it's hands on it. They want you to pay for their blessing (the license). The government wants you to pay attorneys, court costs, and that which is stipulated by the courts in the event of a divorce. It's a money making scheme designed by attorneys. What ever happened to personal liberty? If a church solemnizes a wedding, witnesses, the union or recognizes it, that alone should be enough. If the couple wishes to divorce and part peacefully, let a notorized writ of divorcement be filed and it settled. Custody should be split down the middle or as the writ of divorcement states, if both parties agree. If one party wishes to sue for damages or full custody, let them take the other party to court.

[Dordrecht]

Sexual immorality will drag this country further down the drain.
Jesus Christ is the answer to this world's problems.
We can talk about this issue till we see green, blue and purple.
It's not going to change the word of God.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Does the "government" have the right to define marriage? This whole debate exists because the government tried to meddle and prevent mixed marriages by requiring marriage licenses. Therefore, the problem exists because of the government's intrusion into the private lives of citizens. Had they left well enough alone, I doubt society would do more than laugh at a same gender couple claiming to be married.

Where does the "GOVERNMENT" get the authority to offer a "license" to marry? By doing so, they are implying that any marriage that the government doesn't license is illegal... you don't have the right to marry who you choose without the "governments" blessing. It makes your marriage a state institution and extends the government's power into your private life and the lives of your children. How many faithful fathers have been severely burned in a divorce because of the government's statutes on divorce?

Frankly, marriage has increasingly become an exploitive and often oppressive institution since the government got it's hands on it. They want you to pay for their blessing (the license). The government wants you to pay attorneys, court costs, and that which is stipulated by the courts in the event of a divorce. It's a money making scheme designed by attorneys. What ever happened to personal liberty? If a church solemnizes a wedding, witnesses, the union or recognizes it, that alone should be enough. If the couple wishes to divorce and part peacefully, let a notorized writ of divorcement be filed and it settled. Custody should be split down the middle or as the writ of divorcement states, if both parties agree. If one party wishes to sue for damages or full custody, let them take the other party to court.

Aquila - you seem to have some personal axe to grind here, a little bit.
Have you had an unhealthly experience with the government and/or marriage/divorce?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Sexual immorality will drag this country further down the drain.
Jesus Christ is the answer to this world's problems.
We can talk about this issue till we see green, blue and purple.
It's not going to change the word of God.

Amen. Not the government.