A Wrecked Church!

[HolyFire]

Originally Posted by ILG

It was really the district superintendent and the presbyter. The board never even had a chance to see anything. The district superintendent kept the board from seeing the compilation that my husband took off of work and drove three hours to show them. He told my husband outside the door that "we aren't going to look at that today".

At a later meeting the district superintendent and presbyter took a cursory glance at it before ripping into my husband about some decisions he made. Decisions which were based on decisions the district superintendent had made and didn't follow through on.

At any rate, I would really like to hear from Steve Epley, who would know more about how things were done in the older days, how these things were done. It doesn't excuse what the district superintendent and presbyster did but it helps me understand more why they would not just jump into the situation like we thought they would. Even so, we expected they may not jump in but we at least expected some sort of explanation or discussion on what they might do. At the time, it looked to me like a cover up but that hopefully was not their intent. Of course, I will probably never know.

Were y'all not able to appeal beyond the district?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW aside from family run churches, could this also be a problem of churches that leave organizations and become independent? There isn't really anyone one can go to to complain

Actually, seems to me the problem would be solved if there was any actual unity in the local church body. They could just meet somewhere else without the power grabbers and let them be, and follow on with God.

All this squabbling over real estate, money, 'the position'... bleh.

[HolyFire]

Originally Posted by StillStanding

To fill some of you in. There's a strict traditional Apostolic Oneness church that was founded and pastored for several years (50?) who had authoritarian type control. He didn't have a board and ran everything himself, including all of the finances. When he got older, he had his daughter do all of the finances, but he remained in total control of the church until his death a few weeks ago.

When he became incapacitated, his daughter was in full control doing whatever he wished.

When he died, it left a vacuum of power which the daughter gladly took to herself! She was being paid very well for her services to the church, and she politicked for a local preacher to be pastor who had agreed that she could keep her position. She is divorced and the local preacher is single, so there are rumors that they are romantically involved. Just a rumor.

Last week, the daughter gave herself a raise of $200 per week as there is nobody in power to oppose. If she keeps her position of office manager, she would remain at the "current" salary of $50,000. Keep in mind that the church runs less than 100 people!

Well, last week she sent out certified letters to many of the families that voted against her choice as pastor, telling them that they are no longer members of the church and are not invited back! The are saints that have been loyal members for many years!

It appears that she is doing "scorched earth" to the church to keep her position. You see, all of the church property is in the former pastor's name, since he never had a church board for legal matters. If the church is dissolved, she might claim the church property as an inheritance.

Been to this church, if it's the one I'm thinking about. Down to 100? I remember when the congregation ran 400-500.

[CC1]

Originally Posted by HolyFire

Been to this church, if it's the one I'm thinking about. Down to 100? I remember when the congregation ran 400-500.

400-500 might be a tad evangelistic. My sources who are out of that church say that at its peak it ran around 300 maybe 350. Which would mean on Easter Sunday they might have hit the low end of your estimate I guess!

[AreYouReady?]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Actually, seems to me the problem would be solved if there was any actual unity in the local church body. They could just meet somewhere else without the power grabbers and let them be, and follow on with God.

All this squabbling over real estate, money, 'the position'... bleh.

All the money in the world is not worth going through this stuff. Gather in a home, a rented building, someone's garage etc. and give this all over to the Lord. Ask Him to raise up a leader in the group.

[StillStanding]

Originally Posted by AreYouReady?

All the money in the world is not worth going through this stuff. Gather in a home, a rented building, someone's garage etc. and give this all over to the Lord. Ask Him to raise up a leader in the group.

I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!

I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.

[Esther]

Originally Posted by StillStanding

I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!

I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.

Truly sad.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

Some thoughts(since I am a pastor and have known the pastor this is some observations maybe not thought of)
1. The former pastor was a demanded preacher and singer for which he recieved I would say a sizable income from his preaching out also he was an organizational official for year that probably(?) netted some income. Like mpst preachers of that era he probably dumped it all right back into the church. Pastor who teach the tithes belongs to the ministry(I believe that also) the majority pay most of the church bills and improvements and guest preachers out of the tithe. Years ago the tax professionals were telling us do NOT have two accounts. That has changed but I can see how a man 20 years or more to my senior might not comprehend the changes in the tax laws? Thus this unfortunate ordeal.

Hmm. Interesting. I am not sure that this post was intended to be written to me but nevertheless, I will answer.

I have never heard this before. The previous pastor in the church we pastored is probably 65 or so now. Pretty much the same age as the pastor who taught us carefully to abide by all the tax laws. The people who sued us were demanding that my husband pay the church land payment of $350.00 at 14% interest out of the tithe of $700.00 a month. We had just come from Home Missions, having started a church and paying all the bills for five years. We told them we were unable to carry another church and that we had been told we would be paid tithes when we took the church. To make a very long story short, we sold the land with a lawful vote of the church to get the church out from under the burden of it. The building they were in was falling apart and needed repairs. There was no money to fix it. Before the church split that happened a couple years before we arrived (over finances), the pastor and his wife were making around $45,000 a year with what I could piece together. They had drawn blueprints for a new building on the property, a huge building along with a school and many other things. What the pastor did not tell the congregation was that when he left all the funds were drained, all income was gone (there had been another income stream that had also dried up) and that there was less than $2000.00 in the coffers. When we got there, we simply had to be honest. There was no money. This was shocking to them and preachers in the area were also shocked. We were pretty much blamed for the lack of funds and sued.

I have an honest question. I hope that your position will not prevent you from answering honestly. Do you ever feel that in a church that has completely drained funds, that is it right and proper for a pastor to be spending funds from the expense account for his harley davidson motorcycle and american express bills in excess of $1000.00 a month (he was spending $4000.00 a month that we could piece together before the funds were drained)? Is there ever any excuse for this? To our way of thinking, it is ILLEGAL for a pastor to write personal checks from an expense account for personal items. This is what we had been taught. Is there any reason a district board would turn a blind eye to this? Would this be viewed as ILLEGAL, as we viewed it? Or would it be viewed as foolish and tsk, tsk. But not something they are going to delve into as a serious issue? If they did not delve into it, why not? Why would this not be seen as serious?

One thing I don't think I will ever understand is the lack of explanation, lack of returned phone calls, lack of communication on the parts of the previous pastor, district superintendent and presbyter.

My husband was ready to file a grievance against this pastor and take him before the district board when the presbyter called my husband and asked him not to because his wife had be diagnosed with stage four cancer. Well, then, what do you do? We washed our hands of it. Five months after his wife died, the previous pastor married his AIM interpreter.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by StillStanding

Questions:
If the local preacher was the pastor's choice as next pastor, why didn't he mention it to the congregation, or to anybody else besides his daughter?

Why is the relationship between the daughter and the would- be pastor not relevant to this situation? Everyone in the church knows about it and talks about it. The previous pastor was very anti-remarriage, so wouldn't the daughter try keep any romantic relationship as secret as possible?

Comment
I would LOVE to hear the other side of this story! Will they allow an independent audit of the church's finances? I would LOVE to hear their explanation why they sent out the certified letters kicking out long time members of the church who happened to vote against the local preacher as pastor! I would LOVE to know why no unbiased outside preacher friend is being brought in to handle the process of finding a new pastor for the church!

I was told that it has gotten to he point where some members won't talk to each other, and the pro-local guy crowd is sitting on one side of the church and the anti-local guy crowd are sitting on the other side of the church! I can't help but smile thinking about how one side might try to out-spiritualize the other side! How will tongues and interpretation be handled?

That is relevant. Speculation about being domineering being the cause of her divorce isn't.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by StillStanding

I was told that an official of ALJC has spoken with the group that was kicked out, and they will help them start a new work. The problem is that many of these are elderly people with little income, some of which have attended that church for a great part of their life. Their whole religious identity is with that church and the former pastor! One can understand why this is such an emotional moment for them!

I visited this church over a year ago, and it is a shell of it's former glory.

This is very sad indeed, if the group is small enough, maybe they can start out in someone's home as a bible study group in the meantime.