Something interesting about gays.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

Narcissism means love of self; Coonskinner was pulling that from the idea that a homosexual man is attracted to his own physical image rather than the opposite sex. (likewise with a lesbian)

The fact that sin leaves people hurt and confused is par for the sinful course; that doesn't mean the initial choices aren't any less selfish or self-serving. Sin is only pleasurable temporarily; then it becomes painful and destructive. In the beginning, it can be pleasurable--which is why human beings choose sin over and over and have since the beginning of time.

Of course sin leaves people hurting and confused. That's one of the reasons I so strongly object to any religious teaching that allows people to remain in sin and still be saved--because sin is universally destructive--even if you are told that God is okay with it and you feel some sort of acceptance in your religious circle. The sin itself will still eat away at your spirit, mind and body, and you will still find yourself hurt and confused in the end. Shame on any minister who seeks to allow people to remain in their sins and feel good about themselves spiritually. That man is seeking to allow people to remain in destruction instead of being an overcomer.

Leadership should always teach to leave sin, and to walk in righteousness.

What is being argued is that folks are born into sin or not, this world is sinful and broken, and yes, we all are born into it.

I have mentioned many times that our pastor has mentored seven gay men over the last 20 years. Five of them have married, ladies, of course, and have kids, some of them still struggled with same sex sin. However they have made the decision to trust God, and have confessed and continue to be overcomers. One of the remaining two has lived celibate for over sixteen years, still has the feelings but is an overcomer!!! Two of the married guys are on staff full time at the church, the church has walked with them, never condoning, yet full of mercy and love, in which the guys have flourished.

Unfortunate, the church at large knows too well how to condemn and very little about how to live in community with flawed and struggling humans. Of course, it requires honesty, and just as with the "crooked straights" one must desire to walk in righteousness.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Why do we always want to focus on everything but the issue. We blame demon possession, we blame narcissism, we blame abuse, we blame environment, we blame conditioning.

I don't think the conversations we have here necessarily reflect how anyone responds to or interacts with homosexuals in real life. Discussing to try to understand an issue doesn't hurt anything; I'm sure it can benefit both homosexuals and non-homosexuals to try to look at an issue from all sides and understand the motivations.

Yes, all sin comes from our fallen nature, but there are still different motivations. I John boils those motivations down to three: lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes and the pride of life. Overcoming temptation can be assisted by understanding your own motivations, and it's especially helpful if you understand how innately selfish those motivations are. None of us should have any illusions about our humanity; our hearts are deceitful.

Jeremiah 17:9-10

"9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? 10 I the Lord search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings."

Strong's says that "heart" is used (there) "very widely for the feelings, the will and even the intellect;" Also, "inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding...."

When people embrace their own humanity and start thinking they are innately good instead of innately wicked, they have begun the process of deluding themselves. If you are born with an "innate" inclination of attraction toward the same gender, it's a mistake to assume that it is God-endorsed because it is innate or part of your "inner man." The fact that something is a thread of your very being doesn't mean it's acceptable; a sin can be woven into your heart, mind, will, feelings...and still be very, very wrong in the eyes of God.

[MissBrattified]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

True narcissism would require that one find sexual gratification without the assistance of ANY other partner, male or female.

True, that would be the *purest* form of narcissism. I see your point, but I still think CS's theory could have some bearing. It doesn't have to be all or nothing; it can be a component. I agree with JD that it doesn't work as a universal statement.

And my comment about incest has to do with being drawn sexually to someone who reminds one of one's mother.....maybe not necessarily apropos to this conversation.

I'm really afraid to even go down this rabbit trail.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I know of one homosexually-tempted youth who finds himself to be different from his other young male peers and it his desire to be like them and be liked by them that feeds his temptations. He says he can remember always feeling left out and different from the other guys, from elementary school.

He comes from a Christian family with a home that has both parents.

He has a terrible relationship with his father because he never bonded with him and the gulf between them is really, really wide.

When thinking of him, I often pray for his relationship with his father.

I know all to well how having a bad relationship with your father can be hurtful-- in ways that many will never understand.

Humans deal with different situations differently.

[Luke]

More than people need someone to go with them and work through their sin they need to be shown that there is complete deliverance not only from our past sins but also freedom from the power and pull of sin.

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by MissBrattified

...

I'm paraphrasing here, but he said that homosexuality is the ultimate worship of self--because instead of being attracted to one's opposite, complimentary gender, homosexuals are attracted to their own image. Homosexuality is rooted in narcissism.

MissB, I have to disagree with this opinion. As one who wrestles with being attracted to my gender, I believe I am not a narcissist - at least in the sense that I understand the definition.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I'm not sure if I'd go that far. My name is Chris... and my girlfriend's name is Christina. Likeness in a mate doesn't demand narcissism. I think it's deeper than narcissism. I think it's a problem rooted deep in one's very nature.

This sounds like the beginning of a play ground jump rope song...

My name is Chris and my girlfriends name is Christina
We're gonna get married and move to Argentina...

[Luke]

Azzan do you believe that there is complete deliverance from that struggle?

[Azzan]

Originally Posted by Luke

Azzan do you believe that there is complete deliverance from that struggle?

I do. But I have never personally known of anyone who has. I know that I have not been delivered even though I have fervently asked to be free of this desire.

[Jermyn Davidson]

How does one define "deliverance"?