To tithe or not to tithe?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by DaveC519

Hello AreYouReady,

I'm not UPCI, either, but I am Apostolic.

In 1Cor 9:14, the root Greek word translated as "ordained" in the KJV is diatasso. This verb appears sixteen times in the NT, and is variously rendered in the KJV as “command”, “appoint”, “ordain”, “set in order”, or “give order”. Other translations: “directed” (NASU, CJB, YLT), “ordered” (NLT), “commanded” (ESV, NIV, NCV, RSV), or “given orders” (TLB). It is used to convey a directive or commandment.

The bottom line is that what Paul is conveying in vs. 14 he's conveying as a command. While it is true Paul did not in this passage associate a curse with disobedience, it is a general biblical principle that every commandment from God contains both a blessing and a cursing.

Gal 3
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree”—
14 so that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham might come to the Gentiles, so that we might receive the promised Spirit[e] through faith.

Also, if my Pastor does not want to receive financial support from the church, who do I "pay my tithe" to? to avoid being cursed??

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Also it is a fact that the tither could redeem some of his tithe but had to add a 5th to it

Lev 27:30 "Every tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the trees, is the LORD's; it is holy to the LORD.
Lev 27:31 If a man wishes to redeem some of his tithe, he shall add a fifth to it.

Really? Please explain Leviticus 27:31 in detail. Thanks.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

[Jacob's Ladder]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I never said anything about a regular event. The principle is "as the Lord increases".

Abraham was increased by capturing the booty and so he gave a 10th of it to the priest of Salem.
No he was not paying a fee to travel through the land. He gave him a tenth because of his Priesthood, not a tax by a king

BTW the priest/king did not demand a tithe/tax. Abraham volunteered the goods

Praxeas,

There was no increase on Abraham's behalf as Abraham kept none of the war spoils for himself. In Genesis 14 we read that Abraham kept nothing. Again, there was no increase on Abraham's behalf.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Really? Please explain Leviticus 27:31 in detail. Thanks.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

What do you mean explain it? What's to explain?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

There was no increase on Abraham's behalf as Abraham kept none of the war spoils for himself. In Genesis 14 we read that Abraham kept nothing. Again, there was no increase on Abraham's behalf.


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

The increase was what he captured in war. That he kept none is irrelevent

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

How isn’t tithing solely under the Old Testament? You mentioned tithing principles. Which principle was God establishing with the following event?

Genesis 28:22-22 reads:

20) Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “if God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear

21) so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the LORD will be my God

22) and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”


We clearly read Jacob giving God terms and conditions, which God must adhere to before Jacob gave a tenth of “his” possessions. In short, Jacob states, God, only if you bless me first, then shall I give you a tenth! This in itself contradicts modern-day tithe teachings. Again, which principle was god establishing when he agreed to Jacob’s terms? As we read Jacob’s story, it’s evident that God accepted Jacob’s proposition.


In regard to Abraham’s tithe, that’s an awesome name, by the way, I never understood the logic of those utilizing that isolated event to reinforce modern-day tithing.

We read in Hebrews 7:1 and Hebrews 7:4,

1)For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all,

4) Consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.


Before continuing I read an article, explaining is was customary in that era to give a tenth of war spoils to kings. Though it may have some similarity to tithing (i.e. percentage), it had no affiliation to tithing. We’ve read where tithing derived from personal possessions (i.e. cattle, crops ,etc.).

How did Abraham tithe from items that weren’t of “his” possession? That contradicts the principle of tithing. Furthermore, the bible reads in Genesis 14 that Abraham kept none of the spoils for himself. So Abraham gave a tenth of war spoils, from stolen items, of which he kept none for himself? Sorry, that contradicts Old Testament tithing. Moreover, how does biblical personal possession tithing correlate to stolen property tithing (if such thing exist)?


Regards,
Jacob's Ladder

tithing predated the law. Melchezedek was the Priest of God
They were his possessions. It wasn't stolen.

[Praxeas]

Read the context. Abraham did not give it all to the priest. He returned all that belonged to Melchizedek BACK to him from Sodom.

[Praxeas]

And read all Heb 7. The author uses tithing in the same context as the levitical tithe, so this was no mere custom you read about. It was a tithe to a priest of God

[MawMaw]

No one has to try to convince me that
tithing is right!

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Jacob's Ladder

Praxeas,

How isn’t tithing solely under the Old Testament? You mentioned tithing principles. Which principle was God establishing with the following event?

Genesis 28:22-22 reads:

20) Then Jacob made a vow, saying, “if God will be with me and will watch over me on this journey I am taking and will give me food to eat and clothes to wear

21) so that I return safely to my father’s household, then the LORD will be my God

22) and this stone that I have set up as a pillar will be God’s house, and of all that you give me I will give you a tenth.”


We clearly read Jacob giving God terms and conditions, which God must adhere to before Jacob gave a tenth of “his” possessions. In short, Jacob states, God, only if you bless me first, then shall I give you a tenth! This in itself contradicts modern-day tithe teachings. Again, which principle was god establishing when he agreed to Jacob’s terms? As we read Jacob’s story, it’s evident that God accepted Jacob’s proposition.

What I said was that tithing predates the law and you've just prove it does

In regard to Abraham’s tithe, that’s an awesome name, by the way, I never understood the logic of those utilizing that isolated event to reinforce modern-day tithing.

What I said was, Abraham tithing shows tithing predates the Law.

We read in Hebrews 7:1 and Hebrews 7:4,

1)For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him, to whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all,

4) Consider how great this man was, to whom even the patriarch Abraham gave a tenth of the spoils.


Before continuing I read an article, explaining is was customary in that era to give a tenth of war spoils to kings.

He wasn't giving tithes to a kind. He was tithing to a Priest

Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. (He was priest of God Most High.)
Gen 14:19 And he blessed him and said, "Blessed be Abram by God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth;
Gen 14:20 and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!" And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchizedek, king of Salem, priest of the Most High God, met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings and blessed him,
Heb 7:2 and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, king of righteousness, and then he is also king of Salem, that is, king of peace.
Heb 7:3 He is without father or mother or genealogy, having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but resembling the Son of God he continues a priest forever.
Heb 7:4 See how great this man was to whom Abraham the patriarch gave a tenth of the spoils!
Heb 7:5 And those descendants of Levi who receive the priestly office have a commandment in the law to take tithes from the people, that is, from their brothers, though these also are descended from Abraham.

Heb 7:9 One might even say that Levi himself, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham,
Heb 7:10 for he was still in the loins of his ancestor when Melchizedek met him.


See, in context he was speaking of tithing to the Priest of God, which is why he compared it to Levi.

Though it may have some similarity to tithing (i.e. percentage), it had no affiliation to tithing. We’ve read where tithing derived from personal possessions (i.e. cattle, crops ,etc.).

As I said Tithing as a principle PREDATES the Law. You are reading what the law says but Tithing predates the law

How did Abraham tithe from items that weren’t of “his” possession?

I've read that when someone defeats another in war, the losers possessions become the possession of the winner....

The fact is...this is what it says
Gen 14:20 and blessed be God Most High, who has delivered your enemies into your hand!" And Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

So they were his possessions

That contradicts the principle of tithing.

What principle? As I said this shows the principle predates the law

Furthermore, the bible reads in Genesis 14 that Abraham kept none of the spoils for himself.

No, it says he gave a tenth to Melchizedek.

Of the property of Melchizedek, what belonged to him and Salem, he offered it all to Abraham except for the people but Abraham told him he could keep what was his

Gen 14:21 And the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, but take the goods for yourself."
Gen 14:22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have lifted my hand to the LORD, God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth,
Gen 14:23 that I would not take a thread or a sandal strap or anything that is yours, lest you should say, 'I have made Abram rich.'

So Abraham gave a tenth of war spoils, from stolen items, of which he kept none for himself? Sorry, that contradicts Old Testament tithing.

No, they weren't stolen. They were won, a prize, to the victors belong the spoils

Plunder and giving a portion of the Plunder continued under Moses as well
Num 31:25 The LORD said to Moses,
Num 31:26 "Take the count of the plunder that was taken, both of man and of beast, you and Eleazar the priest and the heads of the fathers' houses of the congregation,
Num 31:27 and divide the plunder into two parts between the warriors who went out to battle and all the congregation.
Num 31:28 And levy for the LORD a tribute from the men of war who went out to battle, one out of five hundred, of the people and of the oxen and of the donkeys and of the flocks.
Num 31:29 Take it from their half and give it to Eleazar the priest as a contribution to the LORD.
Num 31:30 And from the people of Israel's half you shall take one drawn out of every fifty, of the people, of the oxen, of the donkeys, and of the flocks, of all the cattle, and give them to the Levites who keep guard over the tabernacle of the LORD."
Num 31:31 And Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 31:32 Now the plunder remaining of the spoil that the army took was 675,000 sheep,
Num 31:33 72,000 cattle,
Num 31:34 61,000 donkeys,
Num 31:35 and 32,000 persons in all, women who had not known man by lying with him.
Num 31:36 And the half, the portion of those who had gone out in the army, numbered 337,500 sheep,
Num 31:37 and the LORD's tribute of sheep was 675.
Num 31:38 The cattle were 36,000, of which the LORD's tribute was 72.
Num 31:39 The donkeys were 30,500, of which the LORD's tribute was 61.
Num 31:40 The persons were 16,000, of which the LORD's tribute was 32 persons.
Num 31:41 And Moses gave the tribute, which was the contribution for the LORD, to Eleazar the priest, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 31:42 From the people of Israel's half, which Moses separated from that of the men who had served in the army--
Num 31:43 now the congregation's half was 337,500 sheep,
Num 31:44 36,000 cattle,
Num 31:45 and 30,500 donkeys,
Num 31:46 and 16,000 persons--
Num 31:47 from the people of Israel's half Moses took one of every 50, both of persons and of beasts, and gave them to the Levites who kept guard over the tabernacle of the LORD, as the LORD commanded Moses.
Num 31:48 Then the officers who were over the thousands of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, came near to Moses
Num 31:49 and said to Moses, "Your servants have counted the men of war who are under our command, and there is not a man missing from us.
Num 31:50 And we have brought the LORD's offering, what each man found, articles of gold, armlets and bracelets, signet rings, earrings, and beads, to make atonement for ourselves before the LORD."
Num 31:51 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received from them the gold, all crafted articles.
Num 31:52 And all the gold of the contribution that they presented to the LORD, from the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, was 16,750 shekels.
Num 31:53 (The men in the army had each taken plunder for himself.)
Num 31:54 And Moses and Eleazar the priest received the gold from the commanders of thousands and of hundreds, and brought it into the tent of meeting, as a memorial for the people of Israel before the LORD.

So there is a biblical precedent in God's own words that plunder from war becomes the property of those that won the war

Moreover, how does biblical personal possession tithing correlate to stolen property tithing (if such thing exist)?

It's not stolen