Bombshell- Considering going back to the UPC

[Ferd]

Originally Posted by Michael Phelps

How so?

Mr. Paul said an awful lot about how to LIVE as a Christian. He talked a whole lot about things that are not found in the gospels and are certainly not part of the Gospel Message (the life, death resurrection of Jesus).

He made some clear and distinct demands on the folks he was talking to and he outlined behaviors that have nothing whatsoever to do with the simple gospel message.

He also was utterly unbending in his instruction and belief. How many times does he speak of those who he did not agree with in derisive ways?

His epistles have little to say about the Gospel itself, and vastly more to say about how a saved Christian (someone who has embraced the Gospel) should behave...

No matter how you view 1 Cor 11, the fact is Paul outlines how all women and all men who are part of the body of Christ, should wear their hair. He is not talking euphemistically. He is not using hair as a proxy.

I don’t care if you think the passage means to not cut at all, or if you think the passage means that women should have long hair (with that undefined), he is still saying without any room to maneuver that hair is an issue that he felt must be addressed in the church, by the written word. He starts the paragraph with the words "Follow me as I follow Christ" and then says "I praise you for...keeping the ordinances that I gave you" He ends the conversation with something akin to "if anyone thinks differently, they shouldn’t because this is how all the churches do this". And it is ALL ABOUT HOW CHIRSTIANS TREAT THEIR HAIR.

That is FAR MORE that the simplicity of the gospel that my Navy buddy quoted. And that is one of many examples.

[AreYouReady?]

I worry more about obeying Galatians 5:16-26.

Don't tell those who do not want to see. It says nothing about cutting hair or having beards.

and Don't tell anybody but, I've seen women with uncut hair and men who shave everyday do some of those things in Galatians 5.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Ferd

I humbly submit, that if the above is Truth, then the followers of Paul are damned by their legalism... for Paul was a legalist.

gotta love how the word "legalism" is used for however people want to use it. In OSAS everything is legalism. Lift a finger it's legalism. Might lose your salvation....legalism. Jesus was clearly a legalist.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by navygoat1998

Ferd I submit to you that the Book of Galatians was written to the Church from Paul warning them about legalism.

Paul taught justification by faith and not to add anything to the Cross towards Salvation.

He went as far as to say that if you live by the Law and you break one law you are guilty of breaking all the the law.

and as usual you and other make that to mean things he wasn't saying like a good little protestant.

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

gotta love how the word "legalism" is used for however people want to use it. In OSAS everything is legalism. Lift a finger it's legalism. Might lose your salvation....legalism. Jesus was clearly a legalist.

If you check historical facts, you'll find that Jesus certainly wasn't a legalist. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Farfel

If you check historical facts, you'll find that Jesus certainly wasn't a legalist. "My yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

sigh... thanks for playing. zip right over the head.

The problem IS DEFINING WHAT IS LEGALISM. EVERYONE has their contrived view of what legalism is. People throw it out their like a threat to scare people. I'm I'm gonna call you a legalist because your vie doesn't fit my view of the atonement. You believe baptism is essential. why you are a legalist. You don't believe in OSAS you are a legalist. You believe you can lose salvation you are a legalist.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

and as usual you and other make that to mean things he wasn't saying like a good little protestant.

As usual your as wrong as blinker fluid. But your a good legalistic while your messing up Scriptures.

Oh yea make sure that your women folk are not wearing powder or foundation cuz that's sin under your law!

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

sigh... thanks for playing. zip right over the head.

The problem IS DEFINING WHAT IS LEGALISM. EVERYONE has their contrived view of what legalism is. People throw it out their like a threat to scare people. I'm I'm gonna call you a legalist because your vie doesn't fit my view of the atonement. You believe baptism is essential. why you are a legalist. You don't believe in OSAS you are a legalist. You believe you can lose salvation you are a legalist.

These thing don't make a person a legalist. It's man-made rules that make someone a legalist.

As a side note, I believe that OSAS is wrong, and someone can lose their salvation.

[Michael Phelps]

Originally Posted by Ferd

Mr. Paul said an awful lot about how to LIVE as a Christian. He talked a whole lot about things that are not found in the gospels and are certainly not part of the Gospel Message (the life, death resurrection of Jesus).

He made some clear and distinct demands on the folks he was talking to and he outlined behaviors that have nothing whatsoever to do with the simple gospel message.

He also was utterly unbending in his instruction and belief. How many times does he speak of those who he did not agree with in derisive ways?

His epistles have little to say about the Gospel itself, and vastly more to say about how a saved Christian (someone who has embraced the Gospel) should behave...

No matter how you view 1 Cor 11, the fact is Paul outlines how all women and all men who are part of the body of Christ, should wear their hair. He is not talking euphemistically. He is not using hair as a proxy.

I don’t care if you think the passage means to not cut at all, or if you think the passage means that women should have long hair (with that undefined), he is still saying without any room to maneuver that hair is an issue that he felt must be addressed in the church, by the written word. He starts the paragraph with the words "Follow me as I follow Christ" and then says "I praise you for...keeping the ordinances that I gave you" He ends the conversation with something akin to "if anyone thinks differently, they shouldn’t because this is how all the churches do this". And it is ALL ABOUT HOW CHIRSTIANS TREAT THEIR HAIR.

That is FAR MORE that the simplicity of the gospel that my Navy buddy quoted. And that is one of many examples.

Thanks for the clarification.

I would submit that Paul taught a LOT of things that are not empasized in our churches today, such as "by grace you are saved thru faith, and that not of yourselves".....and "Not by works of righteousness that we are done, it is the gift of God"....that is the very antithesis of the doctrine of many Apostolic churches.

Paul also spoke about principles, and not specifics......there was no multi paged manual of all the things one could and couldn't do......the Pharisees created such drivel, but Paul spoke of being led of the Spirit...and talked of the weaker saints, and the obligation of the stronger saints to not create offense......he admitted that many things weren't sin, but they weren't expedient......but, he never put anyone in hell who did them.....

So, I would hve to say, to use the Apostle Paul as the example of legalism is misguided.

[returnman]

In short I think you are making a mistake. It is just as much about what you believe and know ahead that you are bringing in the fact that you don't believe in the basic doctrines. The typical UPC church hasn't gotten that open to the idea of a once proclaimed three-stepper proclaiming to be a one-stepper now.

You need to be true to yourself, family, etc. If you no longer hold these beliefs you need to keep praying for direction.