Probably once a supernatural phenomenon is independently verified, said phenom then falls under heading "natural explanation" which by definition is no longer supernatural. So in that sense, the naturalist will never accept anything until it becomes naturally explained, verifiable. The polar opposite to that is the believer who cannot accept the (otherwise convincing to the modern world) verifiable, natural explanation if it's perceived to contradict his or her faith. For example, the bible writer supposed that epilepsy is caused by demons, so Jesus to the rescue to chase out the demon. Today, it's verifiable that epilepsy is a neurological malfunction, and treatable by neurological means. Of course the believer will claim special cases of demonicly invoked epilepsy so as to maintain their beliefs. Or, will claim that epileptic *behavior* is what the bible writer really meant, not to be conflated with modern medical terms. Whatever it takes.
And then there are all the false signs we are warned about in the Bible. Don't fall for them! And the obvious dilemma is this: you can't tell a real sign from a fake sign. Nobody can. Many claim to have that ability, but get a dozen of those specially gifted people together and ask them if some alleged "sign" is real or not, and see if their verdict is unanimous!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
(Oh, I should admit my hypocrisy regarding my previous post: I believe I can tell a real sign from a fake one. They're all fake! )
So, if a hypocrite admits hypocrisy, are they still a hypocrite?
Ya, I recall an era in apostolica when the spriritual art of discernment of signs was a bigger deal than today. Probably the 1988 prediction fiasco made many preachers back off a bit (to their credit!)
IMO, Signs are fake as soon as we ascribe fake (unsubstantiated) meaning to them. And since "meaning" is kinda the definition of a sign, then all religious signs are fake. But as long they they *seem* right to enough people, the belief survives. Here's one (link below) that no doubt created euphoric ecstacy for some catholicks. What are the chances of that "angel" appearing in the sky on that day, at that place, in that manner? Since it did appear, the chances were 100%. But what would be the chances of it appearing if predicted TO happen at a specific time, place, and shape? Those are the odds people suppose were being met, but actually were not. Humans are naturally disposed to 1. see patterns 2. count the hits and forget about the misses. Same thing happens with divine healing--we report the hits, and give God credit, but don't include all the misses preceding the hit. Add medicine to the equation, and it's uncanny how much God's ability to heal has improved directly proportional with man's inventions. So far, God's healing rate for limb amputees is zero. Tooth restoration rate, however, is excellent! These days you can even choose a natural tooth color.
Timmy, the deep weeds are fun to get into, (that is, after this thread, which you coaxed me into since I merely ticked a box on the poll question.) But my kind of heresy should be kept on your Cafe-a-blog thread, so I'll be happy to piggyback over there. Seems the main forum ought to be Apostolic, which apparently means "I believe in some kind of Bible-derived God."
I believe you are tolerated for being affable and funny. I will not be, even though I'm WAY MORE ex-apostolic than you! (20 years' worth of believing it.)
Hitler may have been possessed. However, if there was demonic involvement we'd only have evidence for demonization.
Demonization is essentially the first step towards possession. I was taught that demons "whisper" for lack of a better term. Essentially, demons project thoughts into the human soul (psyche). We do this every day when speaking or writing to one another. For example, if I said...
"Big red ball."
Your mind instantly visualizes a "big red ball". While yes, you visualize this, the thought was just projected into your mind via your ears. While demons don't have physical mouths to speak to your years, demons can spiritually project various thoughts into the human mind by means that are more akin to what we'd call "psychic projection" or "telepathy". When these thoughts enter our minds, we often think that they are ours when in fact they are of a demonic origin. If bombarded with enough of these thoughts we often feel temptation and end up with obsession. Then we sin. What follows are voices of condemnation. These voices of condemnation are thrown our way to depress us to the point wherein a person can give up in their Christian walk, convinced that they have been condemned by God. Or perhaps worse... suicide. The goal of any demonic spirit is to kill, steal, and/or destroy in people's lives.
There is good news however, God's Spirit can impress love and acceptance upon the heart.... we can encourage ourselves in God's Word.... and elect angels can also speak encouragement to the soul. This is part of our warfare.
Hitler's thoughts were hellishly insane and repulsive by normal human standards. It is my conviction that most with "mental" or "psychological" problems are easy prey for demonic influence. There is little doubt in my mind that Hitler's insanity was demonically inspired. Hitler created "hell on earth" for God's people.
Lastly, let us not forget that many men in power suffer from demonization.
I married into a Jewish family. Ruth, my grandmother-in-law, was a little girl during Hitler's madness. She even had the numbers that were tatooed on her arm.
I married into a Jewish family. Ruth, my grandmother-in-law, was a little girl during Hitler's madness. She even had the numbers that were tatooed on her arm.
There are believers and unbelievers in both demons and angels.
Some believe people are evil because of their deeds. Some believe people are demon possessed, and that they do evil deeds.
Some people are just jerks.
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If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
2 Chronicles 7:14 KJV
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? Micah 6:8 KJV
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. 1 John 3:2 KJV
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