Restoring the Apostle's Doctrine

[Michael The Disciple]

This is almost funny. The subject is restoring the Apostles doctrine. And now we are snagged once again over just water and spirit baptism.

Friends that is just the BASIC of entering the kingdom!

To restore the Apostles doctrine means going a LOT farther than that.

But sadly most will never get past that way of thinking. Namely that if Acts 2:38 is accepted....now we have restored the apostles doctrine!

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Originally Posted by bishoph
Just to be clear......the AG and many other Pentecostal based groups teach that Holy Ghost baptism is distinct from and subsequent to salvation. Which is why nearly all of those groups believe that one is saved regardless of whether or not they EVER receive the spirit baptism or not. It is according to their teaching, something EVERY believer should seek for (to receive power) but not something they MUST have to be saved.

Also it is true that most Pentecostal based groups teach that speaking with tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

My question is......is there any other (initial) sign that one has received the Spirit? Or more directly, is speaking with tongues the ONLY biblical and universal (initial) sign or manifestation of one receiving the Holy Ghost?

I would ask the question, who is demanding proof that one has received the Holy Ghost? Who needs this proof?

But, to answer your question concerning receiving the Spirit. Tongues sometime accompanied, sometimes didn't accompany the infilling of the Holy Ghost. John himself was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. Even John's father was filled with the Holy Ghost, but no tongues.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

Tongues sometimes, and sometimes does not, accompany the infilling of the Holy Ghost.

And secondly, is there any biblical evidence that one can receive an indwelling presence/spirit separate/distinct from being baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Isn't that what being baptized with the Holy Ghost is....receiving the indwelling presence/spirit of God? There is instance after instance in scripture where individuals were indwelled with the Spirit of God. Unless you're saying there's a difference between receiving the Spirit of God and being baptized with the Holy Ghost?

I need clarification before I can give a specific answer.

[seekerman]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is almost funny. The subject is restoring the Apostles doctrine. And now we are snagged once again over just water and spirit baptism.

Friends that is just the BASIC of entering the kingdom!

To restore the Apostles doctrine means going a LOT farther than that.

But sadly most will never get past that way of thinking. Namely that if Acts 2:38 is accepted....now we have restored the apostles doctrine!

The Godhead, tongues, standards...the OP holy trinity.

[Farfel]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is almost funny. The subject is restoring the Apostles doctrine. And now we are snagged once again over just water and spirit baptism.

Friends that is just the BASIC of entering the kingdom!

To restore the Apostles doctrine means going a LOT farther than that.

But sadly most will never get past that way of thinking. Namely that if Acts 2:38 is accepted....now we have restored the apostles doctrine!

Acts 2:38 is a very valid piece of scripture (as is all of the bible), but the apostles' doctrine doesn't hang on just 1 scripture; it goes much further than that.

[navygoat1998]

Originally Posted by bishoph

Just to be clear......the AG and many other Pentecostal based groups teach that Holy Ghost baptism is distinct from and subsequent to salvation. Which is why nearly all of those groups believe that one is saved regardless of whether or not they EVER receive the spirit baptism or not. It is according to their teaching, something EVERY believer should seek for (to receive power) but not something they MUST have to be saved.

Also it is true that most Pentecostal based groups teach that speaking with tongues as the Spirit gives utterance is the initial evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

My question is......is there any other (initial) sign that one has received the Spirit? Or more directly, is speaking with tongues the ONLY biblical and universal (initial) sign or manifestation of one receiving the Holy Ghost?

And secondly, is there any biblical evidence that one can receive an indwelling presence/spirit separate/distinct from being baptized with the Holy Ghost?

Correct the other Pentecostal denominations along with many of the forefathers of the United Pentecostal Church did not consider tongues a requirement for Salvation but for power to be an effective witness. This being of course based off the words of Jesus Christ.

I believe that in most cases yes tongues does confirm the Baptism in or with the Holy Ghost. Tongues can be an unknown human language or what most us speak an unknown heavenly language.

As far as the indwelling Spirit how about the overcoming life or the witness of the Spirit. Romans 8:16 or 1 John 3:24

Once again my understanding is the Baptism in or of the Holy Ghost is for the power to witness for His namesake and for more of the Charismatic displays and gifts.

The indwelling is for things more like the Fruit of the Spirit.

My turn to question why did Christ breath on His disciples and tell them to receive the Holy Spirit?

John 20

21 So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

22 And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Farfel

Acts 2:38 is a very valid piece of scripture (as is all of the bible), but the apostles' doctrine doesn't hang on just 1 scripture; it goes much further than that.

And, when one amends Acts 2:38, not as far...

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Farfel

#1 - Yes. Tongues is the only biblical evidence given for Holy Spirit baptism.

#2 - Ephesians 1:13

Hmm, I'd say 1Cor12:7 seems to refute that; but, along with the confusion of glossololia and xenoglossy, we also seem to have more at "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and "Gifts of."

I would genuinely love some clarity here. Is there a difference in "Baptism," taking a complete definition into consideration, and "Gifts," same thing? Arguable, but also, at "...they spoke in tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance" does not seem to imply that they all did, see lexicon?

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen. A sad state of affairs for the "institutional church".

I come from the house church side of the tracks. We don't believe that buildings, "sermons", pews, programs, salaries, offices, or positions are NT requirements. We meet in homes, coffee houses, parks, and other venues. We have "elders" who are spiritual mentors, or spiritual fathers, not suited and licensed religious agents of the state with ecclesiastical authority. The the church gatherings are more like family renunions. Gives a whole new meaning to being "brothers and sisters" in the LORD.

It breaks my heart how the Apostolic movement stopped following God upon getting licensed and incorporated.

Aquila---Sad but true. I too believe that is where we went wrong when we incorporated and organized God plumb out of the picture.

[larrylyates]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

Come dear brother Yates

The UPCI suffers from the same myopia that every new denomination that came along, the Lutherans thought they were the restoration of the true church, and so did the Wesleyans and the Methodists and so on.

The UPCI is just a step back to the early Apostolic Church, the UPCI is still a long way from being the true Apostolic Church.

Their self-anointing as the Church of Acts falls short of reality.

Their illusion that they are the last step in the way back to the Church of Acts is sadly too real to them.

God is not finished yet taking us back to the original church of Acts.

I fully agree with the highlighted statement. I do not believe we have "arrived." The purpose of the post I made was simply to provide people
with access to some educational material that is very informative and helpful.

[Light]

Originally Posted by seekerman

I would ask the question, who is demanding proof that one has received the Holy Ghost? Who needs this proof?

But, to answer your question concerning receiving the Spirit. Tongues sometime accompanied, sometimes didn't accompany the infilling of the Holy Ghost. John himself was filled with the Spirit in his mother's womb. Even John's father was filled with the Holy Ghost, but no tongues.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Act 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.

The Holy Ghost came on the Gentiles the same way it did on the Jews on the day of Pentecost.

Act 10:44    While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45    And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46    For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

In Acts 11 no one is receiving the Holy Ghost.
In acts11 Peter is explaining to the elders in Jerusalem why he went into a Gentiles house.
I noticed you left some very important verses out of you post.
Act 11:13    And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14    Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.