Newborns & Children go to hell?! What does the Bib

[Timmy]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

That would be "playing God"

So what? It is the kindest thing you could do for a child.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Shawn

We're discussing the nature of punishment. In this life, unless you get a life sentence or are put to death, all punishments are corrective and work to prevent further transgressions. In the next life I believe they are all corrective, and that the corrections will be eternal.

We are discussing the purpose of punishments

It was said or asked about Punishments being corrective (To correct someone's bad behavior)

And I speculated that was not true that punishments were to preventative, meaning to prevent them in the first place.

And as I said Punishments as a corrective don't work very well as an idea

Monetary punishments are simply to benefit the recipient of the money

Doing time is a lot to do with removing that person from society so he won't do it again

Simply "doing the time" does not correct most bad persons. They need other influences, dealing with a counselor, religion etc etc

But a lot of times we put people away for a really long time because they are a danger to society

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by Timmy

So what? It is the kindest thing you could do for a child.

Or more accurately, it is the Greatest Good one could do for a child, which is to be distinguished from the "kindest." Seems kindness refers to intention of the giver, not as much the receiver. My mother has done kind things for me that were not necessarily for my Greatest Good. To ensure salvation, however, would definitely be the greatest good for a child to receive, even if the parent is sinning to accomplish it, IMO.

[crakjak]

[QUOTE=Antipas;1261054]

Originally Posted by NewbieMisfits

I did. Let's look at it again...

Luke 12:47-48
And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Let's look CLOSELY at this verse and consider it's implications. First, those who know God's will and don't do it are punished with greater punishment than those who don't know God's will and didn't do it. This establishes varying degrees of punishment. Time fits the crime with relation to knowledge of God's will.

Also, if we're talking "lake of fire" an eternity in the lake of fire is an eternity in the lake of fire. There is no variation. BUT... if one's "part" in the lake of fire is temporary... then you have greater and lesser torments. In short, if both are beaten with stripes forever there can be no degrees of many vs. few. For this relative relationship to exist the beatings must end; some before others.

Christ's teaching in this text would demand a universalist approach when harmonized with the whole of Scripture. This text assails the righteous justice of God.

That's what I've been talking about, agree!!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

There's a significant difference between eternal torture vs. a punishment commensurate with the crime. In your god's economy, the smallest sin (a finite incident) is worthy of an infinite, eternal damnation. That's not a "punishment" derived from a sense of justice, but is rather a psychotic behavior. The supposed "escape route," which I'm sure you should invoke, does not obviate the fact that the smallest sin does MERIT the eternal wrath of god. (James 2:10.) And this is all "justice" to the Christian mind--at least to one that believes, rather than spins the bible.

In the tradition of Jonathan Edwards, and God dangling one over hell fires, like a spider. Why does the smallest sin MERIT the eternal wrath of God????

He created the earth and man, and has tolerated sin for thousands of years, if He doesn't plan on redeeming all of mankind why prolong the agony by adding billions to the torture chamber??? God is not a monster, and He will not fail in His purpose of man and the earth.

[MarcBee]

Originally Posted by crakjak

In the tradition of Jonathan Edwards, and God dangling one over hell fires, like a spider.

I have scant knowledge about Jonathan Edwards, but I do know in Medieval or Renaissance paintings, for example, strange looking demons are given the task of dangling sinners over hellfire and other tortures. Presumably the intention of the artists was to imply that the Yahweh god created these nasty minions to do the unpleasant spider dangling. Is that the sort of thing you are claiming I agree with, along with Jonathan Edwards?

Why does the smallest sin MERIT the eternal wrath of God????

Intuitively, I have no idea why, yet the belief is corroborated throughout the New Testament. One or two examples should suffice, as I am almost tiring of reviewing this very common orthodoxy.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[BTW, Mosaic law not necessarily in view there, as evidenced in previous two verses: 2:8 "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well" 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin , and are convicted of the law as transgressors."

Or, pick any ole' violation--James would agree you are "convicted as transgressor."

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned .

Peter, Paul, et al often back up the same concept--any sin we have committed proves the fallen nature we have received at birth due to Adam's fall, and in turn validates god's punishment for sin. And faith--the correct faith--is the only escape route, of course.

He created the earth and man, and has tolerated sin for thousands of years, if He doesn't plan on redeeming all of mankind why prolong the agony by adding billions to the torture chamber???

Likewise, if god doesn't plan on redeeming the devil, why tolerate all that and his supposed demons for thousands of years? Would it take Yahweh that long just to make a point? Circular what-ifs could go on forever. Rather, I am mirroring fairly common orthodoxy concerning sin and its consequences. You are free to spin the bible into describing a very, very nice God, or one answerable to a human sense of justice. Suits me!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

I have scant knowledge about Jonathan Edwards, but I do know in Medieval or Renaissance paintings, for example, strange looking demons are given the task of dangling sinners over hellfire and other tortures. Presumably the intention of the artists was to imply that the Yahweh god created these nasty minions to do the unpleasant spider dangling. Is that the sort of thing you are claiming I agree with, along with Jonathan Edwards?



Intuitively, I have no idea why, yet the belief is corroborated throughout the New Testament. One or two examples should suffice, as I am almost tiring of reviewing this very common orthodoxy.

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
[BTW, Mosaic law not necessarily in view there, as evidenced in previous two verses: 2:8 "If ye fulfill the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself, ye do well" 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin , and are convicted of the law as transgressors."

Or, pick any ole' violation--James would agree you are "convicted as transgressor."

Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men for that all have sinned .

Peter, Paul, et al often back up the same concept--any sin we have committed proves the fallen nature we have received at birth due to Adam's fall, and in turn validates god's punishment for sin. And faith--the correct faith--is the only escape route, of course.




Likewise, if god doesn't plan on redeeming the devil, why tolerate all that and his supposed demons for thousands of years? Would it take Yahweh that long just to make a point? Circular what-ifs could go on forever. Rather, I am mirroring fairly common orthodoxy concerning sin and its consequences. You are free to spin the bible into describing a very, very nice God, or one answerable to a human sense of justice. Suits me!

You're are only quoting one half of the facts, yes, all men were condemned to the curse of sin, and became sinners as the result of Adam's failure.

Just as the MANY were made sinners, the same MANY are made righteous, thru the blood of Christ. As you accuse, so you do, shape the meaning of scripture to your belief. I am not just making God nice, I believe in the sufficiency and the POWER of the blood. That power is greater that the power of Adam's sin, the cure is greater that the disease. All of mankind came under the curse, without any choice in the manner, why is it that the blood of Christ (the cure) not recognize in the same manner.

Man's response to the free gift is important, but a totally different subject. Man's release from the curse is finished and complete, as Jesus declared.

BTW: God is not making a point, He has a plan, and He is working His plan, satan nor Adam have changed His plan.

Roman 5:19-21

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

(the law came to make man more sinful, so that God's grace would be more obvious)

21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jonathan Edwards was an early American minister, while admirable in so many ways, was a fire and brimstoner of the strongest style, of which I think you would agree and approve. Google and read all about Jonathan.

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by MarcBee

Likewise, if god doesn't plan on redeeming the devil, why tolerate all that and his supposed demons for thousands of years?

You will be quite surprised at what all God is redeeming, after all, ALL of it is HIS creation, and that makes him responsible for every last bit of it. Man makes all kinds of doctrines to excuse God of responsibility, and He hasn't asked nor does He want to be excused. He will complete His work, defeat every enemy by making them friends, and eliminate all evil in the process.

If religious folks could understand that God is redeeming the complete creation, what ever is wrong will be made right, then they could be preachers of the Good News, aka the Gospel. Rather than the horrible condemnation and unbelievably bad news that is declared as the gospel.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Timmy

So what? It is the kindest thing you could do for a child.

The kindest thing is to raise the child right. As for "so what", you seem to believe it's ok to "play God" but murder is a sin.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Antipas

Christ's teaching in this text would demand a universalist approach when harmonized with the whole of Scripture. This text assails the righteous justice of God.

Severity of punishment is not necessarily duration of punishment. This does not support Universal reconciliation which insists ALL will be saved. Nothing here suggests that