Why men hate church

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Well I was kidding however it seems he was not saying "ask the Pastor questions" but rather give their own opinion on the passage.

The house church paradigm that I'm used to has an elder reading a passage. He shares his thoughts or insights that the Holy Spirit has given him. Then he opens the group up to share there thoughts and/or experiences concerning the subject matter, the passage, or even any of the comments he has made. It's amazing how much insight some men have but they never have a venue to share it. Some young people are wise beyond their years. Some older men who rarely speak unload about 45 minutes of wisdom and insight that builds on what the elder talked about... sometimes someone cracks and begins confessing sin they struggle with or shame or depression or feelings of being a failure. They break and weep and we pray for them, plead the blood over them, and administer the grace of God in the power of the Holy Ghost. It can be so beautiful, everyone has a voice. Everyone has something to contribute. Some men will write a song and bring it to sing. Others will be moved by a particular hymn or worship song and bring the CD and we sing along with it... tears streaming down. And the FOOD. Dude... nobody eats like house churches. The food is abundant and awesome homemade goods. Some even serve some rather nice wine. But that depends on the house church and the convictions they've arrived at as a group. The ladies gather and come down stairs and warmly sit buy the husbands... what they talked about we don't know. But the atmosphere is different. They look at us with... respect and tenderness. Yes... my favorite house church gathers with men and women gathering separately when we dig into the lesson. But something is just different... more personal. Beautiful.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by renee819

And a husband has no right to demand that the family do things----just because he said so. He should always consider that the Word says, “that a man is to love his wife as he does his own body.”

These are some of the things that I would teach, along with 1 Cor 13. And possibly when the Husband saw that his wife really does love him, he might just come to a home meeting to see what was going on.

Renee,

Overall I enjoyed your post. But as a male, I have some questions regarding the matter of authority in the home. You said that a man shouldn’t be a big boss. And you’re right. However, someone does have to have final say… even if that means MAKING the family do something. For example (this is a true story)… a man’s wife had a friend from high school that showed back up in her life. It had been years. That friend had become mixed up in drugs, alcohol, prostitution, theft, etc. Now, this “friend” was fleeing an abusive boyfriend. She had gone from boyfriend to boyfriend and had nowhere to go. Here’s how the conversation went… (names and specifics have been changed to protect the identities of those involved)

Wife: Do you remember Jenny?

Husband: Yes. Why?

Wife: She called my mom’s house the other day trying to reach me and mom gave her my number. She’s going through a REAL hard time. ***Wife explains all that Jenny had been through within the past few years***. Here’s the issue honey… she has absolutely nowhere to go. Her parents won’t take her in and she has a 14 year old son. What do you say we take her in for just a month to help her get back on her feet? She can stay in the guest room upstairs.

Husband: Wow hon… that’s a tall order. Just out of the blue like this? Why won’t her parents take her in?

Wife: She was on drugs when staying with them last time… and she stole some things. But she says she’s been clean for nearly 6 months.

Husband: I really don’t think this is a good idea. She’s running from an abusive boyfriend. Can’t she stay in a shelter? They might be able to give her some assistance and get her on her feet.

Wife: She has a 14 year old son, Brian. A shelter is no place for a woman with a son. Anything could happen.

Husband: Honey, I think you’re approaching this with your heart and not really thinking it through. I don’t think it will be a good idea. We don’t know if she’s still on drugs or not… her own family won’t take her in. We have two children. You just got a job babe, things have been so tough financially, it’s time we start enjoying the fruits of our labors. We barely made it buy just the four of us… now we’re to take on a woman and her 14 year old son??? Honey, I don’t think it’s going to be a good idea.

Wife: I don’t understand why you can’t show some Christian compassion! What if we’re the only witness she’ll ever get?!

Husband: Honey… this is our home.

Wife: You mean this is YOUR home!

Husband: No, it’s OUR home. But I don’t think this is a good idea. It’s not a good idea because we don’t know if she’s really clean. She stole things from her mom and dad’s when she stayed there and they don’t’ want her to come back. We are nearly broke financially and the light is at the end of the tunnel if we don’t take on any extra burdens….

Wife: So a friend in need is a BURDEN to you???


Husband: No, that’s not what I’m saying. We stand a chance at getting on our feet financially and…

Wife: Oh… so it’s all about MONEY to you???

Husband:No.

Wife: That’s what you keep saying!

Husband: That’s not what I mean… I’m saying that we can’t…

Wife: Why can’t you be more positive???!

Husband: Honey… we really shouldn’t do this.

Wife: She’s my friend, this is my house too and we’re going to help her!

Husband: Really??? I’m the husband of this home, the father of this house. This is a terrible idea and I say absolutely NOT. You won’t hear me out on why and so I have to simply tell you NO.

Wife: Tell me NO??? What right have you to tell me NO???

Husband: I’m the man of this home. It’s my job to protect and provide for this home. You aren’t taking any concerns that the home might face seriously…

Wife: Oh… so now I DON’T love our family!!!???

Husband: That’s not what I’m saying…

Wife: She’s coming here and we’re going to help her.

Husband: Absolutely NOT.

Wife: You don’t have the right to say NO!

Husband: What is it with you??? Can’t you see I’m trying to do my friggin’ job as a husband!!!

Wife: No you’re NOT. You’re being an #%$@#$#!!!

Husband: (Gets up and slams the door as he walks out side for fresh air)

Wife: (Wife comes storming out the door) Oh, so now your SLAMMING things and scaring people!

Husband: No I’m not. I’m just trying to…

Wife: You’re being an #%&*^#$!!! Is what you’re doing!

Husband: (Raises voice) I said NO and that’s final!!!

Wife: Don’t you raise your voice at me… I can call the police and stay with mom tonight!

Husband: I’ve done NOTHING WRONG.

Wife: You’re slamming doors and screaming at me. The neighbors can here you! You’re scaring everyone!

Husband: No I’m not!!!

Wife: Where’s my phone!!!


Husband: What is WRONG with you??? I’m just trying to protect our family!!!


Wife: You’re an un-Christian and hateful $^$#@$^%&%$!


Husband: Oh, and calling me names is real Christian isn’t it…???


Wife: I’m calling mom… (At this husband goes into the house to lick his wonds, neighbors looking at him like he’s a monster while wife sits on the porch and cries into the phone to her mother)

So the wife leaves and comes back the next day. They have an almost repeat of the conversation. He relents and allows her “friend” to stay with them. Her friend was only supposed to stay a month and pay $100 in rent… she paid nothing. The husband had to fit the bill for all the extra food, even running this woman around for her errands. The utility bills are inflated because the woman watches television and leaves the lights on in various rooms. Her son brings marijuana into the house (wife makes it a Hallmark honesty lesson and insists that they be allowed to stay). All in all… the woman stayed nearly five months. Today… they are terribly behind on the electric bill. Water is turned off. Gas & Heating is turned off and the fall is gearing up. One night this woman storms out in a huff and doesn’t come back, leaving her son at the house. When the couple gets back home from work the next day… the woman and her son are gone. She also took kitchen appliances, silverware, and some jewelry with her.

Shouldn’t he have been able to “make” his wife not do this to their home???

Where was this man’s authority in this situation???

What could he have reasonably done to enforce his will for the protection of the family???

In an Islamic culture… this would have ended very differently. Why? Because in such a culture the husband actually has "real" authority over the home as God intended.

[n david]

If the story is true, I hope the wife has apologized for the junk she said and did to put them in this mess. Not that an apology would do much, honestly.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Shouldn’t he have been able to “make” his wife not do this to their home???

Sounds like he tried, but she was rebellious and wouldn't listen to any kind of reason. She wanted to call the police!? Seriously? She has some serious issues which need to be addressed with Godly counseling.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Where was this man’s authority in this situation???

In the trash. The scenario described shows she does NOT respect her husband, his authority, nor his decisions. Honestly, it sounds like a broken marriage which without God's help and Godly counseling could end up in a divorce.

Originally Posted by Aquila

What could he have reasonably done to enforce his will for the protection of the family???

I don't see how he could have done anything. The woman threatened to call the police on him. She was completely over-reacting, too emotionally involved to think clearly, and show complete disrespect. If it were my wife, it'd be hard to get over this. I'm sure in time I could, but it would get pretty bad. I wouldn't be able to trust her.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by renee819

And a husband has no right to demand that the family do things----just because he said so. He should always consider that the Word says, “that a man is to love his wife as he does his own body.”

These are some of the things that I would teach, along with 1 Cor 13. And possibly when the Husband saw that his wife really does love him, he might just come to a home meeting to see what was going on.

Aquila, you are probably asking the wrong person about that problem. My husband and I did those things so many times. Mostly with teen agers and mostly his family. We both agreed, but it turned out really hard on us and our 4 children. Some we helped, and they later thanked us for it. Some I don't see that we did help.

Originally Posted by Aquila

Renee,

Overall I enjoyed your post. But as a male, I have some questions regarding the matter of authority in the home. You said that a man shouldn’t be a big boss. And you’re right. However, someone does have to have final say… even if that means MAKING the family do something. For example (this is a true story)… a man’s wife had a friend from high school that showed back up in her life. It had been years. That friend had become mixed up in drugs, alcohol, prostitution, theft, etc. Now, this “friend” was fleeing an abusive boyfriend. She had gone from boyfriend to boyfriend and had nowhere to go. Here’s how the conversation went… (names and specifics have been changed to protect the identities of those involved)

Wife: Do you remember Jenny?

Husband: Yes. Why?

Wife: She called my mom’s house the other day trying to reach me and mom gave her my number. She’s going through a REAL hard time. ***Wife explains all that Jenny had been through within the past few years***. Here’s the issue honey… she has absolutely nowhere to go. Her parents won’t take her in and she has a 14 year old son. What do you say we take her in for just a month to help her get back on her feet? She can stay in the guest room upstairs.

Husband: Wow hon… that’s a tall order. Just out of the blue like this? Why won’t her parents take her in?

Wife: She was on drugs when staying with them last time… and she stole some things. But she says she’s been clean for nearly 6 months.

Husband: I really don’t think this is a good idea. She’s running from an abusive boyfriend. Can’t she stay in a shelter? They might be able to give her some assistance and get her on her feet.

Wife: She has a 14 year old son, Brian. A shelter is no place for a woman with a son. Anything could happen.

Husband: Honey, I think you’re approaching this with your heart and not really thinking it through. I don’t think it will be a good idea. We don’t know if she’s still on drugs or not… her own family won’t take her in. We have two children. You just got a job babe, things have been so tough financially, it’s time we start enjoying the fruits of our labors. We barely made it buy just the four of us… now we’re to take on a woman and her 14 year old son??? Honey, I don’t think it’s going to be a good idea.

Wife: I don’t understand why you can’t show some Christian compassion! What if we’re the only witness she’ll ever get?!

Husband: Honey… this is our home.

Wife: You mean this is YOUR home!

Husband: No, it’s OUR home. But I don’t think this is a good idea. It’s not a good idea because we don’t know if she’s really clean. She stole things from her mom and dad’s when she stayed there and they don’t’ want her to come back. We are nearly broke financially and the light is at the end of the tunnel if we don’t take on any extra burdens….

Wife: So a friend in need is a BURDEN to you???


Husband: No, that’s not what I’m saying. We stand a chance at getting on our feet financially and…

Wife: Oh… so it’s all about MONEY to you???

Husband:No.

Wife: That’s what you keep saying!

Husband: That’s not what I mean… I’m saying that we can’t…

Wife: Why can’t you be more positive???!

Husband: Honey… we really shouldn’t do this.

Wife: She’s my friend, this is my house too and we’re going to help her!

Husband: Really??? I’m the husband of this home, the father of this house. This is a terrible idea and I say absolutely NOT. You won’t hear me out on why and so I have to simply tell you NO.

Wife: Tell me NO??? What right have you to tell me NO???

Husband: I’m the man of this home. It’s my job to protect and provide for this home. You aren’t taking any concerns that the home might face seriously…

Wife: Oh… so now I DON’T love our family!!!???

Husband: That’s not what I’m saying…

Wife: She’s coming here and we’re going to help her.

Husband: Absolutely NOT.

Wife: You don’t have the right to say NO!

Husband: What is it with you??? Can’t you see I’m trying to do my friggin’ job as a husband!!!

Wife: No you’re NOT. You’re being an #%$@#$#!!!

Husband: (Gets up and slams the door as he walks out side for fresh air)

Wife: (Wife comes storming out the door) Oh, so now your SLAMMING things and scaring people!

Husband: No I’m not. I’m just trying to…

Wife: You’re being an #%&*^#$!!! Is what you’re doing!

Husband: (Raises voice) I said NO and that’s final!!!

Wife: Don’t you raise your voice at me… I can call the police and stay with mom tonight!

Husband: I’ve done NOTHING WRONG.

Wife: You’re slamming doors and screaming at me. The neighbors can here you! You’re scaring everyone!

Husband: No I’m not!!!

Wife: Where’s my phone!!!


Husband: What is WRONG with you??? I’m just trying to protect our family!!!


Wife: You’re an un-Christian and hateful $^$#@$^%&%$!


Husband: Oh, and calling me names is real Christian isn’t it…???


Wife: I’m calling mom… (At this husband goes into the house to lick his wonds, neighbors looking at him like he’s a monster while wife sits on the porch and cries into the phone to her mother)

So the wife leaves and comes back the next day. They have an almost repeat of the conversation. He relents and allows her “friend” to stay with them. Her friend was only supposed to stay a month and pay $100 in rent… she paid nothing. The husband had to fit the bill for all the extra food, even running this woman around for her errands. The utility bills are inflated because the woman watches television and leaves the lights on in various rooms. Her son brings marijuana into the house (wife makes it a Hallmark honesty lesson and insists that they be allowed to stay). All in all… the woman stayed nearly five months. Today… they are terribly behind on the electric bill. Water is turned off. Gas & Heating is turned off and the fall is gearing up. One night this woman storms out in a huff and doesn’t come back, leaving her son at the house. When the couple gets back home from work the next day… the woman and her son are gone. She also took kitchen appliances, silverware, and some jewelry with her.

Shouldn’t he have been able to “make” his wife not do this to their home???

Where was this man’s authority in this situation???

What could he have reasonably done to enforce his will for the protection of the family???

In an Islamic culture… this would have ended very differently. Why? Because in such a culture the husband actually has "real" authority over the home as God intended.

In the an Islamic culture, in an Islamic country, the husband can also kill his wife and children if they go to another Religion. And probably other things as well. I certainly wouldn't choose them as an example.


Yes, I the example you gave, the man should have put his foot down, and refused to take them in. His wife might have went to her mothers, or pouted a few days and if she left for good, that would have been a poor excuse to leave. Meaning there wasn't much love to start with. If she was actually cursing, I don't see how she can claim to be a Christian.

10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried, or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away

If she leaves for that reason, let her go. And if she stays and is mad, the husband should still try to treat her civilly, probably won't be any lovey-dovey, but eventually she would or should see the wisdom of his words, when she hears of all the things the 'other woman' got into.

Remember, I said, “That the husband is the Head, that means that he is responsible for the family. That doesn't mean that he is the big boss, and everyone should shake in their boots if they disagree. If they disagree, they should be allowed to say so. And have a good reason. And a kind and gentle husband will listen and not be too arrogant to change his mind. A wife should not deliberately go against her husbands wishes."

He gave her good reasons. He probably should have emphasized the spiritual side more, And she deliberately went against his wishes.

He wouldn't be demanding she obey---”just because he said so.” But as the Head of the family, he gave her good and sound reasons why they shouldn't do that. Even though he relented, which he shouldn't have done, the wife is at fault, more than the husband, but they both really made a mistake. And no doubt learned from it, or should have.

How could he used more authority? He shouldn't have relented. Absolutely refused. and if the woman came any way. He should have told her to leave. if she wouldn't, then call the police. (That would have been very hard for me to do. But then, I'm not the Head of the family.)

What his wife did after that, was up to her.

[Adam]

The problem with the husband calling the police to ask the wife's friend to leave is that usually (and I think by law) the police will side with the women. All they have to do is say that he raised his voice, was angry, slammed a door, made them feel uncomfortable in any way, and he is asked to leave his own home. If a woman does the same thing, it is viewed as being under duress with the husband somehow causing it to happen, or as a kind of "self defense". Police will haul away a woman, however, if she succeeds in verbally "pushing the officer's button" or strikes the officer.

I really like this thread because it deals with a lot of the issues I had to deal with in regards to my marriage of 23 years that ended several months ago. I agree with a lot of what Aquilla is posting here.

[renee819]

Originally Posted by Esaias

1 Cor 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

Praxeas wrote,

You believe that Paul was speaking about someone quoting a passage and teaching on it and then other "prophets" near giving their opinion on that verse??

Ibelieve it goes much deeper than that.

1 Corinthians 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

I believe Paul is speaking more about 'unknown tongues and prophecy” than about teaching, unless we count teaching as prophecy. When unknown tongues are interpreted, they become 'prophecy. But all is supposed to be for the edifying of the assembly.

I believe that, when the church meets, wherever they meet, every member should have something to say, if they have been in prayer and meditation on the Word, and God has given them something, “every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.”

:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted
“one by one” Why? “that all may learn, and all may be comforted”
And yes, I believe that the teaching went forth as dialog.

And no, we are not to check our brains in the coat closet at the door. I believe that we should judge everything that we hear in church. Otherwise, it is brainwashing.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Wife: You mean this is YOUR home!

Husband: No, it’s OUR home. But I don’t think this is a good idea. It’s not a good idea because we don’t know if she’s really clean. She stole things from her mom and dad’s when she stayed there and they don’t’ want her to come back. We are nearly broke financially and the light is at the end of the tunnel if we don’t take on any extra burdens….

Wife: So a friend in need is a BURDEN to you???


Husband: No, that’s not what I’m saying. We stand a chance at getting on our feet financially and…

Wife: Oh… so it’s all about MONEY to you???

Husband:No.

Wife: That’s what you keep saying!

Husband: That’s not what I mean… I’m saying that we can’t…

Wife: Why can’t you be more positive???!

Husband: Honey… we really shouldn’t do this.

Wife: She’s my friend, this is my house too and we’re going to help her!

Husband: Really??? I’m the husband of this home, the father of this house. This is a terrible idea and I say absolutely NOT. You won’t hear me out on why and so I have to simply tell you NO.

Wife: Tell me NO??? What right have you to tell me NO???

Husband: I’m the man of this home. It’s my job to protect and provide for this home. You aren’t taking any concerns that the home might face seriously…

Wife: Oh… so now I DON’T love our family!!!???

Husband: That’s not what I’m saying…

Wife: She’s coming here and we’re going to help her.

Husband: Absolutely NOT.

Wife: You don’t have the right to say NO!

Husband: What is it with you??? Can’t you see I’m trying to do my friggin’ job as a husband!!!

Wife: No you’re NOT. You’re being an #%$@#$#!!!

[/QUOTE]

At this point the man should calmly say 'She is not staying here and if she shows up I will have her arrested for trespassing. If you don't like call your momma and pack your things. The kids are staying here. Once you've had time to consider the direction you're headed in, we can talk about it.'

And then go about his business. If she absolutely REFUSES to submit to his authority - assuming they are both Christians and he has already explained the BIBLE authority for him to make the decision he has made - then she needs to leave.

And he would need to make that absolutely clear.

An no, she doesn't get to run off with the kids and the checkbook, either.

Which reminds me, the fact she is working outside the home while they have two children is a big red flag to begin with, and probably is a major contributor to the fight. Meaning, this family is not operating Biblically with either person in their proper role.

It looks to me like this is a typical American family - both man and wife work outside the home, she has her career, he has his, the government schools or some private school or some nursery business (day care) raises the kids during the day, they probably do not have 'family worship' on a regular basis which would include Dad teaching his family the Scriptures book by book and chapter by chapter and verse by verse... in short, the family had some serious issues long before the 'friend in need' came on the scene, issues not readily apparent, but waiting to froth to the surface as soon as testing time arrived...

As a solution, the husband would need to firmly let the woman know he is not going to open his home to anyone until the home is operating according to Biblical order, period, full stop. That would be the first priority.

If she refused, then he would need to start following biblical guidelines for church discipline.

If she still refused, she would need to be 'excommunicated' from the church, from the Lord's Table, from fellowship with any and all members of the church (including her husband) until she either repented or abandoned him.

We are not our own, we who have named Christ as Lord have given up our will and ways of doing things, and have pledged to obey him. And we will prove the honesty of our word, one way or the other, sooner or later.

[Aquila]

My point is that in our culture a man has been reduced to the bumbling baffoon often portrayed in evening sitcoms. A man's voice isn't really of any value unless it's in a subculture of... other males. In my experience even women in the church are unrestrained. They pay lip service to the notion of male headship and authority... but when they absolutely have to submit... all that goes out the window. And who makes the final decision??? The woman.

I've had this experience too... I was managing the bills. I had to call and make a payment arrangement. They explain to me why they cannot make a payment arrangement. I ask if there are any acceptions or anything else they can do. The person on the telephone (male or femal, doesn't matter) assures me that there isn't. So I go home and tell the little lady that they told me there was nothing they could do. She gets irate and treats me like I'm a 15 year old kid that can't do anything right. She gets on the telephone and calls the same number I called and gets a representative. Within five minutes they work out a payment arrangement regarding the bill... for her! That has happened to me time and time again. I began bickering so much about it, I told her that she could call them if she wanted a payment arrangement. We were behind on rent once. I called the landlord and asked if he could take a late or partial payment. He lectured me about how he was in business to make money and that our lease was a "contract". Then he implied that he could evict us if we didn't pay. Well... I tell her, she calls him... guess what... he'll take a late payment all of the sudden. It got to me soooooo much I began pointing out EVERY time this happened when we were out in public. I asked a clerk at Wal-Mart where an item was... they sighed and explained that they weren't sure and directed me to an isle. She asked... the employee got on the radio... two more employees showed up... and they helped her find it! She was beside herself. She'd always rolled her eyes at me when I complained that I wasn't even going to ask and said I'd rather find it myself. We were at Korger's grocery store one night. We had our two kids with us. We have a tradition... we typically go to the bakery and get free "kiddie cookies" for the kids as a treat, if they are well behaved. She asked me to go and request them. The lady behind the counter said they only had one left. So, instead of getting one cookie and watching the kids fight over it or breaking it in half and have to listen to the kids bicker about only having half a cookie... I told momma that they only had one cookie left. She walks up to the counter and asks for two cookies... happily the lady opens another box and gives her two cookies! LOL

What gives???

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

At this point the man should calmly say 'She is not staying here and if she shows up I will have her arrested for trespassing. If you don't like call your momma and pack your things. The kids are staying here. Once you've had time to consider the direction you're headed in, we can talk about it.'

And then go about his business. If she absolutely REFUSES to submit to his authority - assuming they are both Christians and he has already explained the BIBLE authority for him to make the decision he has made - then she needs to leave.

And he would need to make that absolutely clear.

An no, she doesn't get to run off with the kids and the checkbook, either.

Which reminds me, the fact she is working outside the home while they have two children is a big red flag to begin with, and probably is a major contributor to the fight. Meaning, this family is not operating Biblically with either person in their proper role.

It looks to me like this is a typical American family - both man and wife work outside the home, she has her career, he has his, the government schools or some private school or some nursery business (day care) raises the kids during the day, they probably do not have 'family worship' on a regular basis which would include Dad teaching his family the Scriptures book by book and chapter by chapter and verse by verse... in short, the family had some serious issues long before the 'friend in need' came on the scene, issues not readily apparent, but waiting to froth to the surface as soon as testing time arrived...

As a solution, the husband would need to firmly let the woman know he is not going to open his home to anyone until the home is operating according to Biblical order, period, full stop. That would be the first priority.

If she refused, then he would need to start following biblical guidelines for church discipline.

If she still refused, she would need to be 'excommunicated' from the church, from the Lord's Table, from fellowship with any and all members of the church (including her husband) until she either repented or abandoned him.

We are not our own, we who have named Christ as Lord have given up our will and ways of doing things, and have pledged to obey him. And we will prove the honesty of our word, one way or the other, sooner or later.

I absolutely agree with you.

However, in all seriousness... few churches that I know would take the issue seriously enough to excommunicate her or deny her the Lord's Supper. And I'd even wager that after she laid the situation at the pastor's feet in the guise of offering "Christian charity" to a friend and her son, with the possiblity of them attending... the pastor would tell the husband that he's being too harsh. I've been there done that one too. It's a big joke.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

My point is that in our culture a man has been reduced to the bumbling baffoon often portrayed in evening sitcoms. A man's voice isn't really of any value unless it's in a subculture of... other males. In my experience even women in the church are unrestrained. They pay lip service to the notion of male headship and authority... but when they absolutely have to submit... all that goes out the window. And who makes the final decision??? The woman.

I've had this experience too... I was managing the bills. I had to call and make a payment arrangement. They explain to me why they cannot make a payment arrangement. I ask if there are any acceptions or anything else they can do. The person on the telephone (male or femal, doesn't matter) assures me that there isn't. So I go home and tell the little lady that they told me there was nothing they could do. She gets irate and treats me like I'm a 15 year old kid that can't do anything right. She gets on the telephone and calls the same number I called and gets a representative. Within five minutes they work out a payment arrangement regarding the bill... for her! That has happened to me time and time again. I began bickering so much about it, I told her that she could call them if she wanted a payment arrangement. We were behind on rent once. I called the landlord and asked if he could take a late or partial payment. He lectured me about how he was in business to make money and that our lease was a "contract". Then he implied that he could evict us if we didn't pay. Well... I tell her, she calls him... guess what... he'll take a late payment all of the sudden. It got to me soooooo much I began pointing out EVERY time this happened when we were out in public. I asked a clerk at Wal-Mart where an item was... they sighed and explained that they weren't sure and directed me to an isle. She asked... the employee got on the radio... two more employees showed up... and they helped her find it! She was beside herself. She'd always rolled her eyes at me when I complained that I wasn't even going to ask and said I'd rather find it myself. We were at Korger's grocery store one night. We had our two kids with us. We have a tradition... we typically go to the bakery and get free "kiddie cookies" for the kids as a treat, if they are well behaved. She asked me to go and request them. The lady behind the counter said they only had one left. So, instead of getting one cookie and watching the kids fight over it or breaking it in half and have to listen to the kids bicker about only having half a cookie... I told momma that they only had one cookie left. She walks up to the counter and asks for two cookies... happily the lady opens another box and gives her two cookies! LOL

What gives???

Your wife is sweeter than you are?