Turkeys Died To Set The White Man Free?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by houston

so what you're saying is that you didn't vote for Obama?

Um, no that's not what I'm saying. But I've never voted for him, for the record.

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, but do you feel the same about the Holocaust issue and the American slavery issue? I mean you would be able to tell all those who want to keep bringing up the Holocaust to get over it and move on, wouldn't you? Also those who bring up reparations concerning their ancestors who were once promised 30 acres and a mule, you would tell them to stop trying to make good decent people feel guilty for something that happened years ago. Right?

No they can and should bring it up. And the American Indians should bring up true history as well. But I am not going to let it ruin my Thanksgiving.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Do they have a celebration for any of these other groups who had their land taken from them?

Who is "they"?

Do these other groups have a day of thanksgiving for a time when they and the other group were living in harmony?

Thanksgiving is an American Holiday, not a "other group" day. It is a recent invention.

If you want to start a national Holiday to celebrate something, start a petition

Then behind the facade of that bed time story you have the reality of the people being subjugated, oppressed, and exterminated?

Did you read anything Essias or I posted or are you just in a zone?

I agree this sort of human behavior has been going on for centuries, but no one has a kumbaya story making it into a celebration feast when in fact the real story was about a people having their lives ruined by the people they once shared sweet fellowship?

Like I said in the beginning, thanksgiving is NOT the celebration of Genocide or Indian wars. You said before that you were not saying that but here you are again going full circle

Those Indians HAD their lives already ruined by Disease AND by the other, stronger tribes.

[Sasha]

And while you all continue arguing into Christmas, I'll be eating turkey, taters, dressing, cranberry sauce, corn, rolls, green bean casserole, and pumpkin pie.

Carry on.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Sasha

And while you all continue arguing into Christmas, I'll be eating turkey, taters, dressing, cranberry sauce, corn, rolls, green bean casserole, and pumpkin pie.

Carry on.

I won't be arguing about this and not eating a thanksgiving meal with loved ones. Trust me

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Purim?

Very good Esaias-san.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by ILG

No they can and should bring it up. And the American Indians should bring up true history as well. But I am not going to let it ruin my Thanksgiving.

Ok, why should they bring it up?

[ILG]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Ok, why should they bring it up?

Because history is always relevant.

[Sasha]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

I won't be arguing about this and not eating a thanksgiving meal with loved ones. Trust me

You go, Prax!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Did they die from a specific policy of the European settlers conceived with the purpose of exterminating the Wampanoags? Or were there other reasons for the decline of the Wampanoags? The article I quoted from earlier points out that the vast majority of 'decline' among 'native Americans' was due to disease. Also, the Indian tribes were just as busy fighting and killing and enslaving each other as they were fighting European settlers. Finally, the European settlers were not on a mission to exterminate the Indians, that's pinko commie revisionist 'history'.

What a jumble.

The Wampanoag Confederacy was made up a many sub tribes, in 1614 and epidemic swept throughout the Confederacy, yet didn't decimate them to 2,000 or some claim after King Phillip's war down to a measly 400? The Pequots where attacked by the Puritans because the Pequots controlled the wampum, because their nation was located at the eastern shore of the Massachusetts. Since the Pequot manufactured the most valuable piece of northern American Indian currency the Puritans decided they needed to attack the Pequot enclosure. This took place between 1634 and 1638, the Puritans hardly had time to wipe the greasy chitterlings they ate from the Thanksgiving of 1621, (just a mere 13 years prior) from their lips. Hey, and what about Squanto? Half dead sick from malnutrition, his Pawtuxet tribe half dead. Do these benevolent Puritans help this poor devil out? No, they put him to work teaching them how to grow corn. So, we should all be lead to believe once again, that the European came to this country to help the indigenous backward people, and all the stories of killing, rape, and forced labor was just some self inflicted wound the Indians brought upon themselves?

Originally Posted by Esaias

So, bringing the bible, literacy, the story of Jesus, not to mention a national political structure where religious tolerance was and is possible, as well as a culture of scientific advancement (running water, anyone? electricity? internet? hello?) that far surpassed anything the Wampanoags or their cousins were going to come up with on their own is not 'anything to be thankful about'?

Hey maybe you can also use the above argument to prove that it wasn't such a bad thing to massacre the Aborigine of Australia (ranging roughly from 1789 to 1928 ) because one day they would get flushing toilets. A meager price to pay for someday to have indoor running water.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Did the Wampanoags lose their culture? Pretty much. Was their culture something to be preserved inviolate? Hmmm.. human sacrifice, cannibalism, idolatry, immorality, superstitious ignorance... vs The Bible, Anglo-Saxon common law/Magna Carta/Bill of Rights, representative government*, scientific advancement, the reformation, renaissance, the Enlightenment, literacy, concepts of political, economic, and religious liberty... hmmm, pretty tough call there, eh?

What a bargain! Did you forget why the Puritans were in the Americas to begin with? They not only wanted to convert the Church of England to their teachings, they wanted a Theocracy. Remember that John Winthrop called Massachusetts Bay Colony "The City Upon a Hill" they believed that they were going to establish a Theocracy of Puritan rule, under Puritan dogma, basically a Puritan hegemony which would last for a century. No separation of church and state in Massachusetts, you couldn't even vote if you weren't a church member. Yep, while we are peddled a teary eyed tail of Pilgrims struggling on the Mayflower clutching their Geneva Bibles looking for religious freedom. It was more like Oliver Cromwell breathing a sigh of relief that the Puritans and Separatists were leaving. But, what about the Indian? Your point is that the European settlers came to this country and made their lives much, much, better. Before I start posting about the alcoholism, and suicide rates (young to old) I think you should reconsider how we bless the mess out of our indigenous people.

Originally Posted by Esaias

*I realise the US system of government was partially modelled on Iroquois tribal government, so no need to go there.

Nice, so you throw the Indian a bone by acknowledging their contribution to the Illuminists Freemasons wealthy elite who started this country?

Originally Posted by Esaias

Balderpoppydash. Columbus was not sailing west to 'exterminate every savage he could find'. Nor was his primary (stated) interest just gold and wealth, either.

Next you know you'll be telling us how white christian civilization is the scourge of humanity. Oh wait, seems that is what you are getting at already...



More lies.

Christopher Columbus and his men enslaved native inhabitants of the New World, to dig out the gold until they died. I'm not trying to say Decent Clean White Christian civilization is the scourge of humanity. I believe stupid racist people are the scourge of humanity.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Known for their savagery, so much so all the other tribes feared and hated them.



Who joined with the Europeans in waging war against the Pequot...



It's amazing how many people have no common sense. You decry the very things that, without which, you would in all likelihood not even exist, let alone have a Bible to read and an internet to pontificate on.

Why do you despise the Providence of a Sovereign God, who both plants and overthrows nations according to His Will?

Your a Calvinist?

No wonder your a Puritan enabler.