End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[shag]

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm


Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm







begging

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Something to chew on..and yes it is copied...
E. From counting the names of women mentioned in Paul’s epistles, we see that a full 24% of Paul’s co-workers were women.

And which one of them are said to "preach sermons" alongside him:_________? Been asking you this question for years now . I've already demonstrated the precise lexical data on the relevant Greek texts, terms, contexts & definitions of virtually every-single text your commentaries reference below (which I'll not just sit here & continue to do, all the while you ignore every-single text & quote I marshal) - & what do you do? Ignore it & stubbornly keep copying & pasting the same ol' misinformation .


1. “Thus 13 women are known by name to have been leaders in Pauline churches. Paul, in his letters, names 54 men within the churches, presumably all of whom had some leadership role.” (Dr. David Scholer, Professor of New Testament, Fuller Theological Seminary, Theology News and Notes, Mar. ’95, p. 22.)
a. Women leaders with churches in their homes: Lydia (Acts 16:14-15, 40); Chloe (I Cor. 1:11); Nympha (Col. 4:15); Apphia (and her husband Philemon, Philem. 2); Priscilla (and Aquilla, Rom. 16:3-5).
b. Other women leaders: Nereus’s sister (Rom. 16:15); Julia (Rom. 16:15); the mother of Rufus (Rom. 16:13); Mary (Rom. 16:6); Tryphaena (Rom. 16:12); Tryphosa (Rom. 16:12); Persis (Rom. 16:12); Euodia and Syntyche (Phil. 4:2- 3); Priscilla (Rom. 16:3); Phoebe (Rom. 16:1-2); Junia (Rom. 16:7).
F. In Romans 16, 10 of the 29 persons (35%) mentioned by Paul are women.
1. In Rom. 16:1-2 Phoebe is commended by Paul as a diakonos, the masculine title meaning “deacon” or “minister” (BAGD [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, A Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (University of Chicago Press, 1979)], p. 184, 2b.) in the early church, the office mentioned by Paul in I Tim. 3:8-13. I Tim. 3:11 specifically mentions women diakonos- ministers. (The fact that the word is masculine and not feminine shows that it denotes the title of the office of “deacon” and does not simply denote the common noun “servant.” Because if Phoebe were only being called a “servant” in the generic sense, the noun in apposition would have taken the feminine gender of Phoebe’s name as all adjectives and nouns do in Greek which are modifying feminine proper nouns, e.g. Phoebe is called “sister” with the feminine form adelphe in Rom 16:1 and “patroness” with the feminine form prostatis in 16:2; in Philem. 1 Apphia is called “sister” with the feminine form adelphe, while Philemon is called “brother” with the masculine form adelphos. )

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 15
a. That women were “diakonos”-ministers in the early church is confirmed by an early second century AD letter by Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor (110-112 AD), which mentions two female slaves tortured for their faith in Christ, who are described in Latin as ministra, “ministers,” the common Latin translation of the Greek diakonos. (BAGD, p. 184, 2b)
b. In the first four centuries of Church history, women were included with men in the office of “diakonos”-minister. The Greek masculine title diakonos referred to both men and women until a separate order of women deaconesses is first attested in the Syrian Church ca. 380 AD. (K. Beyer, in Kittel, Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, vol. II, p. 93; Encyclop. Britannica, 1992, vol. I: 448.)
c. “Diakonos”-ministers, both men and women, served as prophets and teachers in the early church. A second century document called The Didache (“The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles”) mentions that both elders/bishops and deacons served as prophets and teachers. Didache 15:1 “Appoint for yourselves therefore bishops and deacons worthy of the Lord, . . . for unto you they also perform the service of the prophets and teachers.” (H. Bettenson, Documents of the Christian Church [Oxford University Press, 1963], p. 64).
d. Phoebe is also called by Paul prostatis, “patroness, guardian” (BAGD, p. 718). The Greek verb related to this term is proistemi “to manage, conduct” (BAGD, p. 707), which suggests that Phoebe exercised some level of leadership as a “diakonos”-minister. The same verb proistemi is used of leadership functions in Rom. 12:8; I Thes. 5:12; I Tim. 3:4, 5, 12.
2. In
first, suggesting her leadership prominence in the early church.
Romans 16:3 Paul greets Priscilla and Aquilla. He, like Luke, names Priscilla
3.


Have already debunked every-single one of these claims & shown them to be erroneous & a flat-out violation-wresting of the biblical data & contexts (e.g., Rom. 16.3; etc., etc.) Ho-Hum.......



In Romans 16:7 Paul mentions that Junia and Andronicus (most likely Junia’s husband) are among the apostles.
a. Junia was a common Latin female name in the Roman Empire. Some scholars have claimed that the name in the Greek text of Rom. 16:7, Iounian (the accusative form), is a hypothetical Greek abbreviation, “Junias,” of the Latin male name “Junianus.” But there is absolutely no evidence at all that there ever

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 16
was a masculine name “Junias” in the Roman Empire, according to Dr. Peter Lampe, Professor of New Testament, Union Theological Seminary, Richmond, Virginia:
“Without exception the Church Fathers in late antiquity identified Andronicus’ partner in Rom. 16:7 as a woman, as did minuscule 33 in the 9th century which records iounia with an acute accent. Only later medieval copyists of Rom. 16:7 could not imagine a woman being an apostle and wrote the masculine name ‘Junias.’ This latter name did not exist in antiquity; its explanation as a Greek abbreviation of the Latin name “Junianus” is unlikely.” (P. Lampe, “Junias,” Anchor Bible Dictionary, vol. 3, p. 1127)
b. The Church Father, John Chrysostom (died 407 AD), who had a negative view of women in many cases, understood “Junia” in Rom. 16:7 as a woman and marveled that she could be called an apostle: “Oh how great is the devotion of this woman,(2) that she should be even counted worthy of the appellation of apostle!” (St. John Chrysostom, Homily 31 on Romans 16:5-16, The Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series 1, vol. 9, [“Chrysostom: Homilies on the Acts of the Apostles and the Epistle to the Romans”], Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971-1980). The first commentator to understand “Junia” as the hypothetical masculine name “Junias” was Aegidius of Rome in the 14th century AD. (D. Scholer, Theology News and Notes, Mar ’95, p. 22)
c. That Junia was recognized among the apostles in the early church is understandable, if the early church had Deborah in mind as the senior judge and a “mother in Israel,” Miriam as a prophetic leader under Moses, and Huldah as a prophetic leader under King Josiah.


Ahhh yes, good ol' Junia. Guess what? I also contacted Dr. Daniel Wallace about Junia. His response is below (which I'm 100% certain will receive the same due attention ):


"Have you seen the article that Mike Burer and I published in New Testament Studies? It deals with specific issue(s). We came to the conclusion that Junia was a woman, but she was not an apostle. See the note in the NET Bible on this. The ESV has also adopted our translation."


Here's the meticulous syntactical-exegetical article by Drs. Wallace & Burer on this text (I also have a couple of word-docs I've written on this specific assertion): http://talmidimyeshua.org/docs/WasJuniaApostle.pdf


Get ready to blush - this exegetical article is outright humiliating to any one claiming that Junia was an "apostle" .



G. Were women among the elders of the early church? If Deborah as a female judge was included with men under the masculine plural Hebrew title “judges” (Heb. masc. plural shofetim) in Ju. 2:16, and Phoebe and other women were included with men under the masculine Greek title diakonos in Rom. 16:1 and I Tim. 3:8 and 11, and Junia was included with Andronicus and other men under the plural Greek title “apostles” (Grk. masc. pl. dative apostolois) in Rom 16:7, then it is not inconceivable that women were included with men under the masculine plural Greek title “elders” in the early church.
1. In I Timothy 5:1-2 Paul mentions “female elders” (presbuterai) alongside “male elders” (presbuteroi). Translators often assume that the passage is only referring to “older men” and “older women,” but Paul uses the same word in the masculine form of the church office of “elder” later on in the same chapter—I Tim. 5:17, 19. It is hard to imagine the same word being used in the same chapter with two unrelated meanings. The fact that the masculine form of the word denotes the office of “elder” in I Tim. 5:17, 19 suggests that the same word in its masculine
 

Already dealt with much of the rest of this - which, BTW, is chok-full of the typical textual assumptions & errors I've come to expect by now .

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 17
and feminine forms also refers to, or at least includes reference to, the office of elder in 5:1-2.
2. There is clear archaeological evidence that in the post-biblical early church there were women elders alongside the male elders (D. Irvin, “The Ministry of Women in the Early Church: The Archaeological Evidence,” Duke Divinity School Review 2 [1980]: 76-86):
a. Egypt: A 2nd -3rd century inscription refers to a woman named “Paniskanes” as a presbutera “female elder.”
b. Egypt: 3rd century Bishop Diogenes set up a memorial to a woman named “Amonnian the female elder (presbutera).”
c. Rome: The 4th century Basilica of Prudentiana and Praxedis contains a mosaic including a woman referred to as “Bishop Theodora” (episcopa Theodora). Concerning this mosaic, Irvin says, "Under a high arch in a Roman basilica dedicated to two women saints, Prudentiana and Praxedis, is a mosaic portraying four female figures: the two saints, Mary, and a fourth woman whose hair is veiled and whose head is surrounded by a square halo—an artistic technique indicating that the person was still living at the time the mosaic was made. . . . A carefully lettered inscription identifies the face on the far left as Theodora Episcopa, which means Bishop Theodora. The masculine form for bishop in Latin is episcopus; the feminine form is episcopa. The mosaic's visual evidence and the inscription's grammatical evidence point out unmistakably that Bishop Theodora was a woman. But the -a [ending] on Theodora has been partially effaced by scratches across the glass tiles of the mosaic, leading to the disturbing conclusion that attempts were made to deface the feminine ending, perhaps even in antiquity."
In about 363 A.D. the Council of Laodicea (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Series II, Vol. XIV [Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1971-1980]) stopped the practice, which was common until then, of appointing “elder women” (presbutides) to positions of leadership in the Church. The words of the Council prohibition suggest these elder women taught both men and women: Council of Laodicea, Canon XI “In old days certain elder women (presbutides) sat in Catholic churches, and took care that the other women kept good and modest order. But from their habit of using improperly that which was proper, either through their arrogancy or through their base self-seeking, scandal arose. Therefore the Fathers prohibited the existence in the Church thereafter of any more such women as are called presbytides or presidents. And that no one may object that in the monasteries of women one woman must preside over the rest, it should be remembered that the renunciation which they make of themselves to God and the tonsure brings it to pass that they are thought of as one body though many; and all things which are theirs, relate only to the salvation of the soul. But for women to teach in a Catholic Church, where a multitude of men is gathered together, and women of different opinions, is, in the highest degree, indecorous and pernicious.”




Ummm, what on earth does extra-biblical commentary have to do with the specific-key biblical texts (that you keep ignoring) ?


So what's not in the Bible is acceptable, but what is in the Bible has to be tampered with until it no longer means exactly what it says (e.g., I Tim. 2.11-14) ?? Behold the very spirit of tradition .



Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 18
The error of this 4th century prohibition becomes clear when one realizes that Priscilla would have been prevented from teaching Apollos with her husband Aquilla as she did in Acts 18:26, and the same would be true of Deborah judging and teaching men alongside women as a “mother in Israel” in Judges 4-5 as well as the proverbial mother and wife teaching the men alongside the women in her household in Prov. 1:8; 6:20; 23:22; 30:17; and 31:26.
3. In the OT the daughters of Zelophehad were included among the “elders” of Israel standing before Moses on the Plains of Moab in Deut. 29:10, because the daughters of Zelophehad represented their clan among the elders and heads of tribes according to Num. 27:1-11 and 36:1-9. (I Kings 8:1, 3 defines elders as heads of tribes and heads of families in Israel.)
4. In the book of Hebrews we see that the Greek term "elders" included women. In Hebrews 11:2 we read "This (faith) is what the elders (Greek presbuteroi) were commended for.” It won’t do to say, as some scholars do, that this use of the term is not the technical use of the term “elders” referring to the church office of elder and that it is only a generic use of the term to refer to older generations of believers. The word used in Heb. 11:2 is exactly the same word as that used for the office of elders in the NT, and it is hard to imagine the early church not making any semantic or conceptual connection between the elders who were in the cloud of witnesses (Heb. 11:2 and 12:1) and the elders who were over their local churches.
a. The Greek word presbuteroi in Heb. 11:2 has been translated into English by the terms "elders" (KJV, NKJV, ASV) and "men of old" (RSV, NASB), and “ancients” (NIV).
b. Yet among these "elders" mentioned we find:
• Sarah (Heb. 11:11, 13);
• Moses' mother (Heb. 11:23);
• the women among "the people" who crossed the Red Sea (Heb. 11:29); • Rahab (Heb. 11:31);
• Deborah (Ju. 4-5), Miriam (Exo. 15:20; Mic. 6:4), Huldah (II Kgs 22), who were all recognized prophets (Heb. 11:33);
• the woman of Zaraphath (1 Kings 17:17-24 and the Shunnamite woman (2 Kings 4:8-36) "who received back their dead, raised to life again” (Heb. 11:35).
c. These "elders" are the same ones who surround us as "the great cloud of witnesses" in Hebrews 12:1. Clearly, in broader biblical usage the term "elders" includes women.

Ummm, didn't you make an argument from the feminine gender of the terms in Psalm 68.11 earlier?


Now, you've pulled a switcher-oo on us & have began applying MASCULINE nouns (Elders) to WOMEN ??


Where has your "gender" argument suddenly flown off to? Thumbs-up in the OT - Thumbs down in the NT??? LOL.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

5. I Timothy 3:1 introduces the requirements for an overseer/ elder (I Tim. 3:1 and Tit. 1:6-7) with the words “If anyone desires to be an overseer. . . .” In I Tim. 3:1, Greek tis “anyone, anybody, whoever,” is both feminine and masculine like other third declension nominal and pronominal forms which have the –s nominative case ending for both masculine and feminine genders in opposition to a distinct neuter form for these same nominal and pronominal forms.


Here's the actual Greek text (along with precise morphology) of I Timothy 3:1: http://biblehub.com/text/1_timothy/3-1.htm


When you click on this link, you'll see that the Greek verb ἐπιθυμεῖ is translated "HE is desirous" (a masculine contra feminine pronoun). Even worse, the Greek indefinite pronoun that your commentary references above (τις -"tis") also appears in the MASCULINE gender (of course, your commentary omits this lil' fact ) - which gender-concept you appeal to as your basis of conclusion in Psalm 68.11 - & are now forced to either abandon altogether or concede your entire argument - your choice !


It's for this very syntactical reason (along with the ensuing context) that alllll of the following professional linguists have adopted the masculine pronoun "he" & never the feminine pronoun "she" & please spare the silly argument that "he" includes "her" in Bible days - it's easily proven erroneous):


New Living Translation
This is a trustworthy saying: "If someone aspires to be an elder, he desires an honorable position."

English Standard Version
The saying is trustworthy: If anyone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a noble task.

New American Standard Bible
It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do.

King James Bible
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
This saying is trustworthy: "If anyone aspires to be an overseer, he desires a noble work."

International Standard Version
This is a trustworthy saying: The one who would an elder be, a noble task desires he.

NET Bible
This saying is trustworthy: "If someone aspires to the office of overseer, he desires a good work."

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
This is a trustworthy saying, that if a man desires Eldership, he desires a good work.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
This is a statement that can be trusted: If anyone sets his heart on being a bishop, he desires something excellent.

Jubilee Bible 2000
The Word is faithful, If anyone desires the office of a bishop, {to be a pastor or elder in the congregation}, he desires a difficult ministry.

King James 2000 Bible
This is a true saying, If a man desires the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.

American King James Version
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.

American Standard Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Douay-Rheims Bible
A faithful saying: if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Darby Bible Translation
The word is faithful: if any one aspires to exercise oversight, he desires a good work.

English Revised Version
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeketh the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Webster's Bible Translation
This is a true saying, If a man desireth the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Weymouth New Testament
Faithful is the saying, "If any one is eager to have the oversight of a Church, he desires a noble work."

World English Bible
This is a faithful saying: if a man seeks the office of an overseer, he desires a good work.

Young's Literal Translation
Stedfast is the word: If any one the oversight doth long for, a right work he desireth;



Not to mention the next qualifications listed by Paul (& entirely omitted from your copy-paste job ):


Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach,



It's just plumb silly to suggest this includes women - & well demonstrated the depths to which one will sink to force their preferences into the biblical text (a text that clearly militates against the same).





a. The fact that Greek tis is both feminine and masculine in its gender reference is common knowledge in all introductory Greek grammars, for example, E. Goetchius, The Language of the New Testament, (New York: Scribners, 1965), p. 298 (§378); H. E. Dana and J. R. Mantey, A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament (New York: Macmillan, 1955), p. 317.
1. Goetchius cites the example from John 3:3 “Unless one (tis) is born from above,” which hardly refers only to men rather than women being born again. Obviously Jesus’ words in John 3:3 and the use of Greek tis refer indefinitely to both men and women, as the word also does in I Tim. 3:1.
b. Again, if Deborah as a female judge was included with men under the masculine plural Hebrew title “judges” (Heb. masc. plural shofetim) in Ju. 2:16, and Phoebe and other women were included with men under the masculine Greek title diakonos in Rom. 16:1 and I Tim. 3:8 and 11, and Junia was included with Andronicus and other men under the plural Greek title “apostles” (Grk. masc. pl. dative apostolois) in Rom 16:7, then it is not inconceivable that women were included with men under the masculine plural Greek title “elders” in the early church.


So much for your "gender" arguments on Psalm 68.11 - ! Sorry Sis, you're simply wrong.



H. In II John the apostle John addresses “the elect lady” as a gatekeeper over her household and her children—most likely the house-church that met in her home. She is responsible for discerning false teachings from true teachings, and she is responsible for keeping false teachers and prophets out of her home and to keep them from influencing her children.

Have already demonstrated every-single one of these claims to entirely erroneous - shall I bump them for you again ?


My prediction? More copy-paste of the same ol' stubborn biblical error - & my subsequent rebuttal of the same - all the while I Timothy 2.11-3.15 & I Cor. 14.34 lies dead in the street - very sad !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

II John 1, 4-11 The elder, To the chosen lady and her children, whom I love in the truth --and not I only, but also all who know the truth. . . . It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love. Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. Watch out that you do not lose what you have worked for, but that you may be rewarded fully. Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you

Biblical Foundations for Women Alongside Men in Ministry 20
and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him. Anyone who welcomes him shares in his wicked work.
1. The fact that the “elect lady” is responsible to discern true and false teaching suggests that she was responsible for teaching in her home and likely was teaching like Priscilla did with her husband Aquilla in Acts 18:26.
a. How could someone be held responsible for discerning true and false teaching if they were not capable of teaching and weren’t actively teaching?
2. Some NT scholars think this letter refers only to the woman’s own home and her own children. But why would a letter for someone’s own children and household alone be preserved in the New Testament, which is a collection of teachings for the whole Church?
a. That these instructions in II John for her “children” are for the disciples in her house-church is suggested by the fact that the term “children” is often used in John’s letters and in the NT to refer to disciples or members of a church (I Cor. 4:14; 12:14; Gal. 4:19; I Thes. 2:7, 11; I Jn. 2:1, 12, 13, 18, 28; 3:7, 18; 4:4; 5:21; III Jn. 4). Further more we have already pointed out women with house-churches that are mentioned in the NT: Lydia (Acts 16:14-15, 40); Chloe (I Cor. 1:11); Nympha (Col. 4:15); Apphia (and her husband Philemon, Philem. 2); Priscilla (and Aquilla, Rom. 16:3-5).
3. The “elect lady” herself is being addressed as the gatekeeper over her house- church. John did not address the elders or deacons of her house-church, but her herself.

Again, as anyone honest & sincere can see - I've already addressed every-single one these assertions in this thread - in detail. See, this is the very reason I did not even want to bother with you - I knew exactly what you would do - what you always do with this issue. In fact, you probably don't know you've lost financial support that you could've probably gotten had you left this issue alone in your news-letters - but I'm not at liberty to explain (nor to comment on a few other things I've recently been made aware of).


You repeatedly state that women should never rule over their husbands, yet, apparently they can "rule" other women's husbands inasmuch as you've told us that Phoebe was a "ruler" over men in the church !? According to your flawed interpretation of I Tim. 2 - the gender roles completely flip when they enter the church-setting - Which makes absolutely NO since (as well as violates the very grammar of the biblical text).


You always ignore the grammar, syntax, careful textual exegesis of key biblical passages, textual refutations to the errors in your copy-paste jobs - & stubbornly plod along with your fingers in your ears like you don't see it. Even worse, you're "teaching" others the same willful ignorance in Brazil. Oh well, I just pray they have eyes to see the innumerable amount of errors in your paste-jobs - but you're "teaching" people to rebel against the natural & clearly stated Biblical order of creation .

[rdp]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i think the fallacy there is assuming any 'first hand information' in this case? The continual pounding upon one (misinterpreted, i think) verse has done nothing but sway me the other way, to be honest. Both cases have been reiterated to death at this point. Gag me with trying to 'prove' something with Scripture, anyway; that is not what the Bible is for, imo. Let the Spirit be your guide here?

The very reason you believe in "women-preachers" - the Bible is not your ultimate authority. It's called "Religious Atheism."


Your decision, but for us, the Word of God is where I'll squarely stand (& always will) .

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Strange thing happened yesterday. I have been giving a series of lessons on the tabernacle. When I got up to give my lesson the spirit of prophecy came over me and for over an hour I spoke to the church....a very rare thing for me... You talk about no one moving....

So according to our dear brother I was ok yesterday but of course am not ok tonight because am teaching Bible school....

Which has absolutely nothing to do with what the Bible clearly says. I do not form my doctrines on human experience (you start this & you'll soon become Catholic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stigmata#Specific_cases), but rather the "sure word" of God !


Sorry Sis. - Think I'll stick with the Bible & let you have your anti-biblical revelations .

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

I think the sister is a better copy/paste artist than the brother.
She won this battle by miles.

Yes, with her innumerable outright textual errors & ignoring of the biblical data, syntax, exegesis, etc., etc. !


But, of course, this is AFF - what else would I anticipate .

[shazeep]

what you anticipate is what you get, rdp

[shazeep]

ok and you know what guys? when discussions get heated, those smiley things, emoticons? get smirky alla sudden, anyone ever notice? how 'bout you go there for a minnit