End Time Army of Women Preachers Psalms 68:11

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by n david

IMO, first-hand account from a direct source is preferred over copying and pasting something found online. I don't have anything against copying and pasting information, so long as it's sourced with a link.

From what I've gathered in this great copy/paste war, is that RDP feels his first-hand information is superior to Sis. Alvear's copying and pasting of information from various websites.

i think the fallacy there is assuming any 'first hand information' in this case? The continual pounding upon one (misinterpreted, i think) verse has done nothing but sway me the other way, to be honest. Both cases have been reiterated to death at this point. Gag me with trying to 'prove' something with Scripture, anyway; that is not what the Bible is for, imo. Let the Spirit be your guide here?

[Sister Alvear]

Actually much is from things I have copied over the years and I would have to look up the references...and I don't have a lot of time...right now am preparing a test for my Bible school students...

[Sister Alvear]

Strange thing happened yesterday. I have been giving a series of lessons on the tabernacle. When I got up to give my lesson the spirit of prophecy came over me and for over an hour I spoke to the church....a very rare thing for me... You talk about no one moving....

So according to our dear brother I was ok yesterday but of course am not ok tonight because am teaching Bible school....

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by n david

IMO, first-hand account from a direct source is preferred over copying and pasting something found online. I don't have anything against copying and pasting information, so long as it's sourced with a link.

From what I've gathered in this great copy/paste war, is that RDP feels his first-hand information is superior to Sis. Alvear's copying and pasting of information from various websites.

I think the sister is a better copy/paste artist than the brother.
She won this battle by miles.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

I see how it works: we must be willing to take your definition of what a preacher does/is, and then make the Bible fit around it.

I see how it works: we must be willing to take your anti-biblical commentary over-against the clear biblical witness .


The point you're missing (due to your typical feminists venom ), is that "women-preachers" today typically take a biblical text & expound upon upon that text to a congregation of both men & women (so I'm told). I am merely asking for biblical corroboration with this practice - guess what? Doesn't exist ! Now, before you ask for biblical evidences of men doing the same - don't fret - I shall produce numerous biblical examples upon request!


So, I guess that poor old Noah wasn't REALLY a preacher because he didn't 'take a text from scripture' as that was not really possible there was no scripture at that time from which to 'take a text'.


Behold how thick the veil of delusion! Unbeknownst to you, you just answered your own question . How could Noah read what did not even exist - unlike contemporary preachers ?? Noah was a preacher in the sense of warning the lost of impending doom - How does this in any way, shape or form interact with the very specific instructions to the NT church ?



That is just one more ego centric, stuck in the mid to late 20th century and forcing that filter onto God's Word, terrible abuse of the pure Word of God.


LOL - Ummm, no it's called the Word of God (same with the hair issue in I Cor. 11 - oughta' give it a try!) - which stands in direct opposition to your late to early 21st century ultra-feminists-liberal paradigm from which you wrest the Scriptures to your own destruction .


And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; (2 Peter 2:5 KJV)


Umm, okay, and?? What do you think this proves? Are you somehow thinking that this invalidates I Timothy 2.11-3.15 or I Cor. 14.34?? If so, please demonstrate how so from the biblical texts themselves:___________?



And, isn't it amazing how the passage you quote above is accepted at face value, but then when we find a passage that clearly militates against your ultra-feminism & 21st-century "liberated" lifestyle - Ummm, time to whip out the eraser & go to work !


11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


Watch the fancy-footwork begin folks !


Anyway, it is very clear that you have defined and crystallized your theology, flaws and all. And so that is how you answer everything, from the barricades of your own self baked doctrine. And saddest of all, you teach this to others.

Oh, I most certainly do teach others hermeneutics-proper - & unbeknownst to you, you need to sit in on a few classes! Regarding my supposed "flaws," mere denial of the biblical grammar, texts, & contexts does not serve as evidence - but rather it serves as mere denial of the Bible !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Roxanne Murphy

And, when you can't get your Greek lexicon to say what you want,

Ummm, first, it's not "my Greek lexicon," I didn't write it ! Second, I merely quote the lexical data presented by numerous professional linguists - you simply do not like what the original languages of the Bible state, so you revert back into attack mode - typical liberal & feminist .


you default to good old Mirriam-Webster. Lame, lame, lame.


You clearly do not have a clue what on earth you're talking about. I have openly renounced Webster's Dictionary over & over in this thread, even clearly stating that it has absolutely no place in a biblical discussion (BTW, it's "Merriam-Webster," not "MIrriam-Webster" - Yes, "Lame, Lame, Lame" ).


I have not one-single time "defaulted" to Webster's Dictionary - you clearly have no earthly idea what you're talking about (as with numerous other topics ).



If by the grace of God you make it to heaven, what you find will probably scare you and shock you, for there will be many there who, by your judgment, are sinners, but by God's Word unadulterated, they are redeemed by the precious blood of Jesus.

I certainly hope so !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

Salmos 68:11 ASV
American Standard Version
The Lord giveth the word: The women that publish the tidings are a great host.
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Salmos 68:11 BBE
Bible in Basic English
The Lord gives the word; great is the number of the women who make it public.
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Salmos 68:11 CEB
Common English Bible
My Lord gives the command— many messengers are bringing good news:
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Salmos 68:11 CJB
Complete Jewish Bible
Adonai gives the command; the women with the good news are a mighty army.
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Salmos 68:11 RHE
Douay-Rheims
(67-12) The Lord shall give the word to them that preach good tidings with great power.
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Salmos 68:11 ESV
English Standard Version
The Lord gives the word; the women who announce the news are a great host:
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Salmos 68:11 GW
GOD'S WORD Translation
The Lord gives instructions. The women who announce the good news are a large army.
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Salmos 68:11 GNT
Good News Translation
The Lord gave the command, and many women carried the news:
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Salmos 68:11 HNV
Hebrew Names Version
The Lord announced the word. The ones who proclaim it are a great company.
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Salmos 68:11 CSB
Holman Christian Standard
The Lord gave the command; a great company of women brought the good news:
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Salmos 68:11 KJV
King James Version
The Lord gave the word: great was the company of those that published it.
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Salmos 68:11 LEB
Lexham English Bible
The Lord gives [the] word. Great is the company of women who announce:
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Salmos 68:11 NAS
New American Standard
The Lord gives the command ; The women who proclaim the good tidings are a great host :
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Salmos 68:11 NCV
New Century Version
The Lord gave the command, and a great army told the news:
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Salmos 68:11 NIRV
New International Reader's Version
The Lord gave a message. Many people made it widely known.
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Salmos 68:11 NIV
New International Version
The Lord announced the word, and great was the company of those who proclaimed it:
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Salmos 68:11 NKJV
New King James Version
The Lord gave the word; Great was the company of those who proclaimed it:
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Salmos 68:11 NLT
New Living Translation
The Lord announces victory, and throngs of women shout the happy news.
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Salmos 68:11 NRS
New Revised Standard
The Lord gives the command; great is the company of those who bore the tidings:
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Salmos 68:11 RSV
Revised Standard Version
The Lord gives the command; great is the host of those who bore the tidings:
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Salmos 68:11 DBY
The Darby Translation
The Lord gives the word: great the host of the publishers.
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Salmos 68:11 MSG
The Message
The Lord gave the word; thousands called out the good news:
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Salmos 68:11 WBT
The Webster Bible
The Lord gave the word: great [was] the company of those that published [it].
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Salmos 68:11 TMB
Third Millennium Bible
The Lord gave the word; great was the company of those that proclaimed it.
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Salmos 68:11 TNIV
Today's New International Version
The Lord announced the word, and great was the company of those who proclaimed it:
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Salmos 68:11 WEB
World English Bible
The Lord announced the word. The ones who proclaim it are a great company.
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Salmos 68:11 WYC
Wycliffe
The Lord shall give a word; to them that preach the gospel with much virtue. (The Lord gave the word; and many women preached this good news.)
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Salmos 68:11 YLT
Young's Literal Translation
The Lord doth give the saying, The female proclaimers [are] a numerous host.
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Whatever that may mean to you I am just glad to be a part of a host of ladies that have proclaimed HIS word... I started proclaiming when I was 12...so that was almost 52 years ago....

Sigh - You CANNOT be serious ? I have pointed out both the context & text of this passage over & over & over & over & over ad nauseum infintum. All you're doing is feigning the high ground of victory in order to save face by continuing to copy-paste rehashed material. So, here, 2 can play that game :


1 May God arise, may his enemies be scattered;
may his foes flee before him.
2 May you blow them away like smoke—
as wax melts before the fire,
may the wicked perish before God.
3 But may the righteous be glad
and rejoice before God;
may they be happy and joyful.

4 Sing to God, sing in praise of his name,
extol him who rides on the clouds;
rejoice before him—his name is the Lord.
5 A father to the fatherless, a defender of widows,
is God in his holy dwelling.
6 God sets the lonely in families,
he leads out the prisoners with singing;
but the rebellious live in a sun-scorched land.

7 When you, God, went out before your people,
when you marched through the wilderness,
8 the earth shook, the heavens poured down rain,
before God, the One of Sinai,
before God, the God of Israel.
9 You gave abundant showers, O God;
you refreshed your weary inheritance.
10 Your people settled in it,
and from your bounty, God, you provided for the poor.

11 The Lord announces the word,
and the women who proclaim it are a mighty throng:



The passage is merely stating that the women celebrated God's victory over the enemies of His people - much like the women who extolled David's victories over Saul's.



How on earth do you think this validates women in the set-in office of the 5-fold ministry in the NT church - or somehow invalidates the crystal-clear restrictions of I Timothy 2.11-3.15 ??


So now every time anyone shares a praise report of what God has done for them - we should consider them in the 5-fold ministry ??



But, since we're quoting from the OT relative to this topic - let's see how you'll explain this one away:


Youths oppress my people,
women rule over them.
My people, your guides lead you astray;
they turn you from the path (Isaiah 3.12).

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

בַר אֱנָשׁ (bar_enosh) answered 3 years ago
אֲדֹנָי יִתֶּן־אֹמֶר הַֽמְבַשְּׂרֹות צָבָא רָֽב׃ -- Psalm 68:11, Hebrew Text (numbered 68:12 in Hebrew)

The word הַֽמְבַשְּׂרֹות , "those bearing news," is grammatically a feminine plural participle in Hebrew.

If it were meant to apply to men, it would likely have used a masculine form.

"The LORD gives a command; the women who bring the news are a great host." -- Psalm 68:11 (68:12 in Hebrew), The Tanakh (published by the Jewish Publication Society, 1985)
Source(s):
The HOLY Bible

Umm, okay? We know that the women told of God's victorious Hand in vindicating His people - how do you think this somehow validates women into the 5-fold ministry & invalidates Paul's clear restrictions of the same ??



Further, if you're going to attempt to make an argument from grammatical gender agreement - then why is the NT Greek noun "Elders" (i.e., ministry) always in the masculine & NEVER in the feminine? Will you be consistent in your basis of appeal? Won't hold my breath !

[rdp]

Originally Posted by Sister Alvear

I am not a person learned in Hebrew...studied it for a year a long time ago however we use the mas. and fem. forms also in Portuguese and Spanish....languages I do understand.

Respectfully Sister Alvear (& I mean in all sincerity) - No M'aam, you do not understand the original language of the NT - I've caught you making innumerable grammatical-textual mistakes, yet you stubbornly refuse to recant.

[rdp]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

BUMP for RDP... he apparently must have missed the bolded question, as he completely ignored it, because he HAS NO ANSWER


LOL - So silly. You've been "answered" over & over & over & over. You simply don't comprehend how to allow for distinct contexts (ummm, as I just pointed at length last night). Again, unbeknownst to you, y'all are looking foolish.



Hmmm, what was that lil' diddy that you keep "ignoring"- where was that - O' joy, I found it:


11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.....I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church.


"Gune and aner are words which mean 'adult female' and 'adult male' in their unmarked meanings. Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.'...The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2. The article occurs in 1 Cor 11, but only because it is syntactically required by the construction. Both passages are clearly talking about the Christian community in worship, which would of course involve single adults and married couples. Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view."








Either Paul was contradicting himself when he said a woman had to keep silent (be absent of all noise, talk, speech) in the church, but yet could prophesy in the church... or Paul was addressing a different issue in those scriptural settings, the latter being what Sis. Alvear and I have labored to show him, yet he has blinders on, and will not receive it.


Bingo! "Paul was addressing a different issue in those scriptural settings" - This is EXACTLY what I've been trying to show you! How on earth you can quote it - then not understand it is - well, I guess understandable (when I really think about it). Keep going though - think this out & you may come around after all !



RDP is CONTRADICTING himself when he says a woman must keep silent, but then says she can prophesy. The two do not meet in that understanding.


And right here is your fundamental hermeneutic-error. You attempt to segregate contra integrate Scripture. Seriously, you need some Bible training. The text states both, so it means both - in their distinct settings & contexts (for about the 5th time now).


And, RDP did not "say a woman must keep silent" - The Apostle Paul did: "The women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak. Rather, let them be in submission, as in fact the law says." For about the 4th time I've told you that the Greek verb translated "speak" (that you keep plodding along about with your fingers stuck in your ears) is equally translated as "preach" no less than 6 times elsewhere in the KJV NT - which is NOT the case with prophecy in Cor. 11 .



I'm beginning to wonder if your Daddy & Mommy knows you're on this forum !


Let's see if he addresses this issue specifically, or just piles on the millionth lexicon/concordance/translation here to avoid answering.

Umm, he has addressed the issue specifically about 5 times now . You simply refuse to accept the death of your silly argument.


Now, would you please offer some exegetical-textual explications to overturn leading Greek grammarian-papyrologist-translator, Dr. Daniel Wallace's syntactical observations below relative to I Timothy 2.11-14 ():


Gune and aner are words which mean 'adult female' and 'adult male' in their unmarked meanings. Only if there are sufficient contextual clues that husband and wife are in view do the words mean 'wife' and 'husband.'...The definite article or 'idios' (one's own) or a possessive pronoun is required to show that husband and wife are in the text. None of these things occur in 1 Tim 2. The article occurs in 1 Cor 11, but only because it is syntactically required by the construction. Both passages are clearly talking about the Christian community in worship, which would of course involve single adults and married couples. Take a look at other passages that are clearly speaking about husband and wife--e.g., Eph 5, 1 Peter 3--and you'll see that they use these signals to note that husband and wife are in view. (which, again, is not the case in I Timothy 2.11-14 & precisely the reason virtually NO reputable translation adopts the "husband-wife" renderings).



Hear that music in the background ?