Islamic Prayers at the Vatican

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Shazeep your views intrigue me.

hmm. i started out just like Luke, Christianity with a jacket. Free your mind, and the rest will follow, imo. You must become heretical to the 'established church'--and by that i mean those with authority in worldly eyes, not the true church, the people--in order to find Christ. Sadducees can only describe Him to you.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm. i started out just like Luke, Christianity with a jacket. Free your mind, and the rest will follow, imo. You must become heretical to the 'established church'--and by that i mean those with authority in worldly eyes, not the true church, the people--in order to find Christ. Sadducees can only describe Him to you.

You have not found Christ you have made Him one of many ways when He said that he is the only way. Wht you found was the tired old falsehood of universalism.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Luke

Bump to Jfrog

The man Jesus Christ existed before being born of Mary? I think not...

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

I am sorry but you are mistaken there is only one way of salvation and that is through Jesus and His death (on the cross) burial and ressurection.

"You vill accept the rigid definitions that our masters and translators have indoctrinated us with, regardless of their spiritual significances." gotcha.

Originally Posted by Luke

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:10 be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

yes, yes--these are all still completely, SPIRITUALLY true.
"When did we see you thirsty" tells me that these sheep never knew the words you have memorized; they knew the spirit. That is all that matters.

Originally Posted by Luke

Salvationc omes through faith in the death burial and riseing again of JESUS there is no other way.

oh, a big amen. see that that is a literal copy of a spiritual model, and that mute people are allowed in also!

Originally Posted by Luke

Why are we not qualified to discuss christianity? All of those terms are what the Bible uses therefore they are the words God chose.

how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' the devil is in the details here. while i totally agree with your words, detectives are able to make the innocent confess, given enough time. see the relationship. you did not translate Scripture from the original, and even if you 'learn' the original language, you prolly still cannot think in it. at least question. seek. search. dig. we have internet now. everything we are taught by another man--me included--is wrong in some little regard.

Originally Posted by Luke

Where does it say in the Bible that we cannot know God?

Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny ...
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. ... Such people claim
they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. ...
Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by ...
But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-(bam)
Eccl 9:1 This, too, I carefully explored: Even though the actions of godly and wise people are in God's hands, no one knows whether God will show them favor. (ergo, you do not know God)
I'm looking for the Psalm (i thot it was), "Who can know God?" but maybe i imagined that one? Bible search can be so frustrating, lol. Yes, you know on some level that God exists. Better than nothing. A start, It is enough.

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

all perfect illustrations, imo. you have a view of what they mean, i have a view of what they mean; but Christ may have a different view, that is neither of ours. Nor the Sadducees, for sure.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by jfrog

The man Jesus Christ existed before being born of Mary? I think not...

I did not say that.

Jesus has always existed but not always in human form.



Post #139
Originally Posted by jfrog
Was God always with us as the man Jesus Christ?

No there was a time when Jesus existed but had not human body.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Luke

You have not found Christ you have made Him one of many ways when He said that he is the only way. Wht you found was the tired old falsehood of universalism.

perhaps--but i will trust that the Spirit will correct me. I do not doubt your desire to find a better conception of Christ, i hope you understand; i do suspect (and condemn) your model. heck, even Eastern Christianity does. Even Ortho does--so we are all in disagreement then, on the semantics. perfect. Just what satan wants. @ 'Universalism,' i don't know; but i do know that all have sinned, and come short. While you might surely be ahead of me in some regards, spiritually, i merely mean to point out the (inevitable) corruption that will accompany any human model--even the model that introduced me to the concept of Christ; if not the Savior. If it works for you, and produces fruit, and the other indicators are where you want them to be--borders increasing, etc--then i would not dream of changing that. Perhaps not a jacket for you, but a blanket. Nothing wrong with that.

i believe that Christ is the only way. Luke--i just do not believe that we have exclusively defined Him, for mass consumption. Your model, wadr, requires that i accept your version of Christ; when i don't even accept my version in perpetuity. My relationship with Christ took a big jump a couple years ago, and i expect it to happen again. i pray the same for you. You have a great spirit!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Luke

There was never a time when Jesus did not exist.

You said this trying to sound spiritual after I said Jews have the same god now that they had before Jesus.

Obviously I was speaking on the man Jesus Christ... Maybe you should have answered directly the first time instead of trying to sidestep the issue.

Do Jews believe in the same god they believed in before the man Jesus Christ.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"You vill accept the rigid definitions that our masters and translators have indoctrinated us with, regardless of their spiritual significances." gotcha.

I accept the Bible.

Originally Posted by shazeep

yes, yes--these are all still completely, SPIRITUALLY true.
"When did we see you thirsty" tells me that these sheep never knew the words you have memorized; they knew the spirit. That is all that matters.
oh, a big amen. see that that is a literal copy of a spiritual model, and that mute people are allowed in also!

How can it be true that Jesus is the only way and yet at the same time you say it is true that there are other ways as well these are contradictory and cannot both be true.

Originally Posted by shazeep

how do you know? how did 'confident expectation' turn in to 'hope?' How did 'the earth became void' turn in to 'the earth was void?' the devil is in the details here. while i totally agree with your words, detectives are able to make the innocent confess, given enough time. see the relationship. you did not translate Scripture from the original, and even if you 'learn' the original language, you prolly still cannot think in it. at least question. seek. search. dig. we have internet now. everything we are taught by another man--me included--is wrong in some little regard.

Please explain your point in the underlined section.

I agree that we should question what we have been taught by man but I have no need to question God or His word.

Originally Posted by shazeep

Titus 1:16 They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny ...
They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny him. ... Such people claim
they know God, but they deny him by the way they live. ...

Titus1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.


This verse in no way says you cannot know God. This verse is talking about those who claim to know God but do not obey God and live abominable lives.

Originally Posted by shazeep

Galatians 4:9 But now that you know God--or rather are known by ...
But now that you know God--or rather are known by God-(bam)

Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Again this never says you can't know God. It is the apostle questioning those who were once saved how they leave God for a lie.

Originally Posted by shazeep

Eccl 9:1 This, too, I carefully explored: Even though the actions of godly and wise people are in God's hands, no one knows whether God will show them favor. (ergo, you do not know God)

Eccl 9:1 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

This does not even say you what posted. Atleast not in the KJV.

Originally Posted by shazeep

I'm looking for the Psalm (i thot it was), "Who can know God?" but maybe i imagined that one? Bible search can be so frustrating, lol. Yes, you know on some level that God exists. Better than nothing. A start, It is enough.

You can know God in a very really and personal way scripture never in anyway contradicts that.

Originally Posted by shazeep

John 8:19 Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.

John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

Romans 1:21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

all perfect illustrations, imo. you have a view of what they mean, i have a view of what they mean; but Christ may have a different view, that is neither of ours. Nor the Sadducees, for sure.

If two views conflict one is right and the other is wrong or both are wrong but they cannot both be right.

[Luke]

Originally Posted by jfrog

You said this trying to sound spiritual after I said Jews have the same god now that they had before Jesus.

Obviously I was speaking on the man Jesus Christ... Maybe you should have answered directly the first time instead of trying to sidestep the issue.

Do Jews believe in the same god they believed in before the man Jesus Christ.

No they according to the Bible rejected Him as well when they rejected Jesus:

1 John 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.



I said that Jesus has always existed because this what the Bible specificly says not because I wanted to sound spiritual.

[Luke]

Shazeep I am curious about one thing. If you believe that there are many roads to heaven do you also believe that the holy book of these other ways are also equal to the Bible?