All Trinitarians are Lost!!!!!!!!!!!

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Lafon

Has the One God Apostolic Pentecostal church continued its (unbroken) presence in the earth since its beginning?

May I suggest you carefully read Marvin M. Arnold's work, titled APOSTOLIC HISTORY OUTLINE for the answer before you call the opinions of others, which differ from your own, as "fruity"!

http://newlifetabernacleofchattanoog...y_Outline2.pdf

While I haven't read the book, Marvin Arnold was my pastor when i was a youth. I have a good friend who helped proof-read his books and he noticed that there wasn't a direct link of modern-day OPs back to Acts. Aside from that book, which many (not just Charnook) find to be innacurate and insufficient, do you have any other proof that the OP doctrines circa 1920 can be traced back to the church of started in Acts?

My argument is not that the gates of hell prevailed, but your definition of the true church (R, Baptism in Jesus Name, HG w/tongues evidence) cannot be traced. The church hasn't failed to exist, but your church has failed to exist throught the ages.

While there are certainly many that won't be saved, we cannot label ALL people prior to the 20th century as lost. This may not be intentional, but claiming the OP doctrine as the only saving doctrine, you unintentionally judge all of christianity outside the very small number of OPs as lost.

[obriencp]

Originally Posted by Sean

Cornelius was not saved until he was baptized.....

Mark 16:16King James Version (KJV)

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

If the Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit, is the agent that brings about regeneration (life from being spiritually dead) than your statement (I bolded) is an impossibility. Water baptism does not bring eternal life, the Holy Spirit does that.

Cornelius believed on Jesus as Peter preached and was filled/baptized with the spirit. Does God put new wine into old bottles? Was Cornelius 'dead in his sins' while simultaneously being filled with the spirit of life?

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by obriencp

While I haven't read the book, Marvin Arnold was my pastor when i was a youth. I have a good friend who helped proof-read his books and he noticed that there wasn't a direct link of modern-day OPs back to Acts. Aside from that book, which many (not just Charnook) find to be innacurate and insufficient, do you have any other proof that the OP doctrines circa 1920 can be traced back to the church of started in Acts?

My argument is not that the gates of hell prevailed, but your definition of the true church (R, Baptism in Jesus Name, HG w/tongues evidence) cannot be traced. The church hasn't failed to exist, but your church has failed to exist throught the ages.

While there are certainly many that won't be saved, we cannot label ALL people prior to the 20th century as lost. This may not be intentional, but claiming the OP doctrine as the only saving doctrine, you unintentionally judge all of christianity outside the very small number of OPs as lost.

Exactly.

Except for the statement "you unintentionally judge all of Christianity outside the very small number of OPs as lost". They do it intentionally and with glee (and multiple exclamation points). Not only that, they also condemn a great number of their own (oneness people) for not keeping standards. In the end they judge everyone as worthy of damnation except themselves. And this makes them happy. Makes them pound pulpits, shout amen, run the aisles, and wave hankys like the Terrible Towel because all the "compromisers" ate going to hell.

Sadly they don't know what they ate talking about. They don't even know the gospel. They've adopted a soteriology that is radically different from everyone in church history. And KNOWING they have no direct link to any group in all of church history they make silly statements like "read THIS book for proof" or "the gates if hell will not prevail, so even though we have zero proof of an "apostolic church" through the centuries we believe by faith there was one anyway, just no one knows about it" or "God doesn't change". All ridiculous ways to defend their beliefs.

As far as God not changing 1) the context of that verse has nothing to do with soteriology, but rather with His righteousness and faithfulness to Israel and 2)Salvation has always been by grace through faith. Never by the law, circumcision, baptism, or tongues. Romans 4 and Hebrews 11 both show how people were made right with God through faith. While passages like Isaiah 1, Jeremiah 7, and many more show how dissatisfied God was with people who circumcised, kept the law, the feasts, the sacrifices, but lacked genuine faith. THE BIBLE PRESENTS ONLY ONE PLAN OF SALVATION THROUGHOUT--BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by obriencp

If the Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit, is the agent that brings about regeneration (life from being spiritually dead) than your statement (I bolded) is an impossibility. Water baptism does not bring eternal life, the Holy Spirit does that.

Cornelius believed on Jesus as Peter preached and was filled/baptized with the spirit. Does God put new wine into old bottles? Was Cornelius 'dead in his sins' while simultaneously being filled with the spirit of life?

There's an old thread on AFF called something like "Acts 10 The Smoking Gun" which destroys Sean's statement and any notion of baptismal regeneration.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley

In memory of a thread by the same name. Still believe unless a person has obeyed Acts 2:38 and believes in the absolute Oneness of God in Christ Jesus. You are lost. If you support a trinity church you are lost. NOT rejoicing but those are the facts.

Amen.

[rick g mcmahan]

and the ACI is just as lost to bad they cant read past Acts 2:38 there is a whole bible to read and obey.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by obriencp

If the Spirit of God, or the Holy Spirit, is the agent that brings about regeneration (life from being spiritually dead) than your statement (I bolded) is an impossibility. Water baptism does not bring eternal life, the Holy Spirit does that.

Cornelius believed on Jesus as Peter preached and was filled/baptized with the spirit. Does God put new wine into old bottles? Was Cornelius 'dead in his sins' while simultaneously being filled with the spirit of life?

This is a good point and one I have tried to raise. there is no LITERAL cleansing in baptism. Our nature is not changed in baptism. Nor does baptism forgive our sins. Baptism is PRE-new birth and is a surrender ceremony, so to speak, to the Lordship of Christ. And when we submit to that Lordship in baptism then Christ personally forgives us, counts us as sinless (justifies us) and is then able to regenerate us by Holy Ghost baptism based on that sinlessness he counts us as having.

However, Acts 10 and the Cornelius account was a unique case and cannot be used to prove that baptism plays no part as a step towards the new birth. God is allowed , if he chooses, to go ahead and save someone before they are baptized. We are not allowed to teach that as doctrine. We must obey the original commission.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Charnock

No, there wasn't a One God Apostolic Pentecostal Church for thousands of years, if ever, prior to 1916.

Yes, I have read Arnold's horrible revisionist history. It's a joke.

Now, did you read anything I posted? Care to respond to my comments regarding the true meaning of Matthew 16:18? Or are you just gonna continue to spout silly stuff without any proof?

First, your calling Marvin Arnold's work a "horrible revisionist history" a "joke," I find most insulting, for it belittles a godly man's life ambition to provide historical proof of the One God Apostolic Pentecostal church's continuous existence.

Dr. Arnold was a recognized historian. Religious history was his main field of expertise. Eighty-eight Oneness Apostolic Christian organizations accepted him as their historian. He was the founder and Chairman of the Biblical Apostolic Organization.

Dr. Arnold spent the last thirty-three years of his life relentlessly researching and compiling Oneness Apostolic history. His literary works also include, Apostolic History Outline, The Origin and Spread of Man, Pentecost Before Azusa, The Bible, Trinity and Matthew 28:19, Nicaea and The Nicene Council of AD 325. He incessantly taught that the Upper Room Church of Saint Matthew 16:18 and Acts 2:1-38, had eternal longevity. He emphasized that the Church of Pentecost has been alive, extant, doctrinally intact throughout each day unto this moment. It never died; it never ceased to function; it never digressed to become something else. It's Apostolic doctrinal structure never fell; it needed no so-called restoration. It did not suffer a torturous step-by-step restoration by inept European gentile reformers. Also, he documented that between ca. 1670 and 1901-1909, in America, there were many Jesus' name people. He affirmed that Oneness Apostolic doctrine did not evolve from out of Topeka or Azusa teachings, nor from 1916 phenomena. Instead, the doctrine of Acts 2:38 has always been available to those who wanted it. Always, someone, somewhere, preached this biblical doctrine.

Dr. Arnold has traveled in Hawaii, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China. In Taiwan at a conference he met with the leading officials of the True Jesus Church of China. His travels also included England, Canada, Newfoundland, the Azores, Africa, and many nations of Europe. He also traveled in Iraq, and has seen the ruins of Babylon. He visited the archaeological ruins of the Tower of Babel in the Shinarian Plains. He researched the bagdad Museum, the British Museum, and the University Museum of Philadelphia. He traveled in Israel, and visited Qumran. He saw Jordan and Syria. He traveled Greece and saw Mars Hill and Corinth.

With an Iraqi government guide Dr. Arnold traveled to the city-state ruins of Uruk (Warka) near the Euphrates River. He investigated the preflood citystate ruins of Lagash, Erida, and Ur. He has researched in many major libraries in the United States, and has had researchers work for him in great European libraries at Cologne, Paris, Oxford, Upsala, Berli, and othersw for information concerning ancient religious history.

In Turkey he researched at Nicaea, where the Nicene Council of AD 325 was held. He visited the interesting sites of Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, Laodicea, and Aphrodisias. He traveled along the Kizilirmak, Ceyhan, and Seyhan Rivers. He visited the Ancient Hittite capitol, Kayseri. He saw the unique Goreme Valley, almost a fairy-tale land of exotic pyramids of stone. Also, located there are 360 solid stone cave churches and complete underground cities.

Dr. Arnold went through the afore mentioned efforts to obtain detailed information pertaining to Apostolic history that transpired during past centuries. His literary works have greatly impacted the Oneness movement, and his legacy has become greatly realized among Jesus' name people world-wide. After an exceptional ministry, Dr. Marvin M. Arnold went home to be with the Lord on November 24, 2001.

I do not share your sentiments of this great man of God's work, rather I praise him for it and am most thankful that he left his findings that others might know the truth about the matter. I'm sorry that you don't agree!

And yes, I did read everything you've posted, and I do NOT agree with your understanding of our Lord's statements of Matthew 16:18 concerning both the "revelation" of His true identity as a "man," or of the absence of His church in the earth until 1916. Therefore I will address only one of your comments which I found to be most absurd, after which I shall refrain from any further discussion about the matter with you, for its evident (to me, at least) you only seek to impose your (erroneous) biased opinions.

The word Hell, in this passage, is actually “Hades” which means the grave .... the gates of Hell, or the grave, are used by Satan to keep the church in the ground

Truth be known, the word "hell" (Greek "hades") not only refers to the grave, but it also implies "death." Even the saints of God MUST die so that this "penalty" for sin which all mankind inherits from our progenitor, Adam, must be fulfilled, without exceptions whatsoever, nevertheless God devised the means whereby His adopted sons, who are compelled to experience the affects of this judgment, will not be forever banished from His presence (II Samuel 14:14). This was accomplished through the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus; one's belief in the atonement wrought by/through His blood, and the receiving of the Spirit.

Admittedly, Satan did exercise "power" to hold captive the souls of those saints of olden times who experienced death PRIOR to the death of Christ Jesus, however, when He ascended into that domain following the death of His flesh, He conquered its devastating eternal affects, thereby cancelled out, dispensed, or did away with Satan's dominion over the souls there, taking them with Him when He ascended to His throne located in the invisible heavens (Matthew 27:52-53 and Ephesians 4:8). In this process of conquering death's affects, He also regained the "keys of hell and of death" (Revelation 1:18), so that since then He, alone, exercises dominion of the souls of both the righteous and unrighteous who enter there.

Therefore for you to assert, or even suggest in any way, that Satan exercises power over the souls of the righteous dead, i.e., the saints of God who've experienced death since the ascension of Christ Jesus, simply CANNOT be scripturally substantiated!

Respectfully submitted.

[Charnock]

Originally Posted by Lafon

First, your calling Marvin Arnold's work a "horrible revisionist history" a "joke," I find most insulting, for it belittles a godly man's life ambition to provide historical proof of the One God Apostolic Pentecostal church's continuous existence.

Dr. Arnold was a recognized historian. Religious history was his main field of expertise. Eighty-eight Oneness Apostolic Christian organizations accepted him as their historian. He was the founder and Chairman of the Biblical Apostolic Organization.

Dr. Arnold spent the last thirty-three years of his life relentlessly researching and compiling Oneness Apostolic history. His literary works also include, Apostolic History Outline, The Origin and Spread of Man, Pentecost Before Azusa, The Bible, Trinity and Matthew 28:19, Nicaea and The Nicene Council of AD 325. He incessantly taught that the Upper Room Church of Saint Matthew 16:18 and Acts 2:1-38, had eternal longevity. He emphasized that the Church of Pentecost has been alive, extant, doctrinally intact throughout each day unto this moment. It never died; it never ceased to function; it never digressed to become something else. It's Apostolic doctrinal structure never fell; it needed no so-called restoration. It did not suffer a torturous step-by-step restoration by inept European gentile reformers. Also, he documented that between ca. 1670 and 1901-1909, in America, there were many Jesus' name people. He affirmed that Oneness Apostolic doctrine did not evolve from out of Topeka or Azusa teachings, nor from 1916 phenomena. Instead, the doctrine of Acts 2:38 has always been available to those who wanted it. Always, someone, somewhere, preached this biblical doctrine.

Dr. Arnold has traveled in Hawaii, Japan, Korea, Hong Kong, Taiwan, and China. In Taiwan at a conference he met with the leading officials of the True Jesus Church of China. His travels also included England, Canada, Newfoundland, the Azores, Africa, and many nations of Europe. He also traveled in Iraq, and has seen the ruins of Babylon. He visited the archaeological ruins of the Tower of Babel in the Shinarian Plains. He researched the bagdad Museum, the British Museum, and the University Museum of Philadelphia. He traveled in Israel, and visited Qumran. He saw Jordan and Syria. He traveled Greece and saw Mars Hill and Corinth.

With an Iraqi government guide Dr. Arnold traveled to the city-state ruins of Uruk (Warka) near the Euphrates River. He investigated the preflood citystate ruins of Lagash, Erida, and Ur. He has researched in many major libraries in the United States, and has had researchers work for him in great European libraries at Cologne, Paris, Oxford, Upsala, Berli, and othersw for information concerning ancient religious history.

In Turkey he researched at Nicaea, where the Nicene Council of AD 325 was held. He visited the interesting sites of Ephesus, Pergamos, Thyatira, Laodicea, and Aphrodisias. He traveled along the Kizilirmak, Ceyhan, and Seyhan Rivers. He visited the Ancient Hittite capitol, Kayseri. He saw the unique Goreme Valley, almost a fairy-tale land of exotic pyramids of stone. Also, located there are 360 solid stone cave churches and complete underground cities.

Dr. Arnold went through the afore mentioned efforts to obtain detailed information pertaining to Apostolic history that transpired during past centuries. His literary works have greatly impacted the Oneness movement, and his legacy has become greatly realized among Jesus' name people world-wide. After an exceptional ministry, Dr. Marvin M. Arnold went home to be with the Lord on November 24, 2001.

I do not share your sentiments of this great man of God's work, rather I praise him for it and am most thankful that he left his findings that others might know the truth about the matter. I'm sorry that you don't agree!

And yes, I did read everything you've posted, and I do NOT agree with your understanding of our Lord's statements of Matthew 16:18 concerning both the "revelation" of His true identity as a "man," or of the absence of His church in the earth until 1916. Therefore I will address only one of your comments which I found to be most absurd, after which I shall refrain from any further discussion about the matter with you, for its evident (to me, at least) you only seek to impose your (erroneous) biased opinions.



Truth be known, the word "hell" (Greek "hades") not only refers to the grave, but it also implies "death." Even the saints of God MUST die so that this "penalty" for sin which all mankind inherits from our progenitor, Adam, must be fulfilled, without exceptions whatsoever, nevertheless God devised the means whereby His adopted sons, who are compelled to experience the affects of this judgment, will not be forever banished from His presence (II Samuel 14:14). This was accomplished through the sacrificial death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus; one's belief in the atonement wrought by/through His blood, and the receiving of the Spirit.

Admittedly, Satan did exercise "power" to hold captive the souls of those saints of olden times who experienced death PRIOR to the death of Christ Jesus, however, when He ascended into that domain following the death of His flesh, He conquered its devastating eternal affects, thereby cancelled out, dispensed, or did away with Satan's dominion over the souls there, taking them with Him when He ascended to His throne located in the invisible heavens (Matthew 27:52-53 and Ephesians 4:8). In this process of conquering death's affects, He also regained the "keys of hell and of death" (Revelation 1:18), so that since then He, alone, exercises dominion of the souls of both the righteous and unrighteous who enter there.

Therefore for you to assert, or even suggest in any way, that Satan exercises power over the souls of the righteous dead, i.e., the saints of God who've experienced death since the ascension of Christ Jesus, simply CANNOT be scripturally substantiated!

Respectfully submitted.

Hogwash.

There is no historical evidence that any group preached your three step message. Please post specific references to groups who preached your message.

Not just one component, mind you, all three. Also, any group you mention should practice those three steps with identical emphases.

[Jason B]

Originally Posted by Charnock

Hogwash.

There is no historical evidence that any group preached your three step message. Please post specific references to groups who preached your message.

Not just one component, mind you, all three. Also, any group you mention should practice those three steps with identical emphases.

And just for good measure, all three PLUS standards.....you know so we can be sure they were really apostolic.