This is what I meant, when I posted "typical PCI doctrine".
Agreed except more like the way PCI folks long ago. They emphasized baptism to the point many would not have known if they were in a PCI or 3 stepper church.
I think we emphasize baptism much more than many PCI folks do today. We just approach it a different way. Our approach is not do you have to be baptized to be saved but why would anybody professing to be a christian not want to be baptized? It is ones public identification with Christ and something the bible tells us to do as followers of Christ. Obviously this puts us in a different doctrinal position than 3 steppers but ironically we end up baptizing many more people in Jesus name than any of the 3 stepper churches in our area. Over 200 this year alone so far and over 500 in the past five years.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
One day after church I talked to my pastor about the situation and he did something I never witnessed much in old time Pentecost.
You pretty much grew up in Pentecost, correct? I know you said you have been a part of 4 churches over the last 31 years. Since the Apostolic movement in the United States is comprised of well over 4 churches, what then do you base the above statement on? Wouldn't it be fair to say that your statement is only based on your own perceived experience? I personally know of Apostolic ministers who have done the same thing you say your pastor had done with you. So, be relieved that there are others out there who have done the same on what you see as the Neanderthal side of Pentecost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
He knew this pastor and his work and said he was a good man and he knew this small church probably needed elder saints and help. That we should tell the pastor we were going to go there for a few months to help out and see where things lead. My pastor told me that after these few months if we felt that was the place we needed to be for us to stay but if not his church was our home and we were always welcome home.
Ironically the small church I went to help is now at least twice as big as the "bigger" church I left three years ago.
What do you call growth? Is it just people filling a building after they joined a group through whatever the group's gauntlet may be? Whether that's dunked in whatever mode, shaking the preacher's hand, faithful tithing, or enduring a preacher cursing at you from the pulpit for 50 minutes after you watched 60 minutes of video, then tolerate 30 minutes of "Jesus is my boyfriend" music?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Although I don't believe one will miss heaven if not baptized I do believe it is an important thing and also while I don't believe a person will miss heaven over the words said over them at baptism I do believe that the correct, biblical way is in Jesus name so it was important to me that a church I am part of baptizes in Jesus name.
You know something, as long as I have been around Churchanity this has always puzzled me? This sounds like a walking contradiction? Baptism is Biblical, and doing it in Jesus name is Biblically correct, BUT it isn't important?
Which logically would be followed by the neophyte saying "then why get wet?"
I know you can't see the quandary, but it makes no sense.
Peter is commanding uncircumcised Romans to get into water after they received the Holy Ghost? In the Spanish 1909 SRV the word used "mandó" comes from the root of the Latin mandatorius which means "he who gives a mandate" another meaning "obligatory because commanded." In English we have the word "mandatory." The Greek προστάσσω means to bid through a authoritative order. Now how do we go from that to the Baptist motto"why would anybody professing to be a Christian not want to be baptized?"
Did Peter tell these uncircumcised Romans it was to be left up to their feelings?
So let's try this again, in your world why would anybody professing to be a Christian want to be baptized if baptism isn't mandatory?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
EB, while I have only been a member of four churches in the past 30 something years I grew up in the UPC and have been in or around it for over 50 years. That included graduating from a UPC Bible College, Visiting a lot of UPC churches, campmeetings, General Conferences,Youth Congress, sectional meetings, revivals, etc, etc. So to try and act like I don't have a basis to make a statement about my experience in the UPC is absurd. Even the decades since I have been out I have many friends and relatives who are still UPC so still visit UPC services and special meetings and talk to a lot of UPC folks including UPC officials, pastors, and evangelists.
I found really offensive your characterization that my pastor curses from the pulpit for 50 minutes. That is not correct and you know it. Also the smarty remark about 60 minutes of video. Where did that come from? Our service includes a 5 minute pre service video that begins to play as people are wrapping up visiting and coming in and are being seated. Halfway through it the lights are dimmed for the praise and worship service. The only other videos during the service are a short (usually 30 seconds to a minute) PSA video for the churches next upcoming community service project and the a short (30 second to one minute) video introduction to whatever book of the bible we are going through or baptisms if it is a baptismal service.
To state my pastors sermons were 50 minutes of cursing at people means you are delusional or not being honest.
Oh, and to your last point people want to be baptized because it is their public identification with Christ and something we are told to do in the bible. A person who becomes a Christ follower will want to do the things the bible tells us to do as christians. The fruit of the spirit, gifts of the spirit, etc.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
I don't expect a lot of old time Pentecostals on AFF to like my church or my pastors teaching but it would be nice if the criticisms were accurate and not lies or exaggerations.
To intentionally mischaracterize is the same as lying. Yes EB I am talking about you. I am very surprised at the animosity in your posts.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
I don't understand how this thread went from someone rejoicing that new souls were added to the Kingdom of God to some of the mean comments being made. I have never had a pastor speak that way either but I figure that is for the Holy Spirit to convict if He chooses. Everything does not have to be turned into a debate...does it?
EB, while I have only been a member of four churches in the past 30 something years I grew up in the UPC and have been in or around it for over 50 years. That included graduating from a UPC Bible College, Visiting a lot of UPC churches, campmeetings, General Conferences,Youth Congress, sectional meetings, revivals, etc, etc. So to try and act like I don't have a basis to make a statement about my experience in the UPC is absurd. Even the decades since I have been out I have many friends and relatives who are still UPC so still visit UPC services and special meetings and talk to a lot of UPC folks including UPC officials, pastors, and evangelists.
So, spoon feed me, what exactly is "old time Pentecost?"
What crosses your mind when you say those three words?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I found really offensive your characterization that my pastor curses from the pulpit for 50 minutes.
Whoa! Did I say your pastor? Reread my posted line..I said "preacher."
I asked you about church growth and what you consider church growth to be, then rattled off a few items. I guess the bigger question would be, why did you think I was directly speaking of your pastor? Because of the use of the word "you" in the posted line, then sorry. Or was it because I made mention of his pulpit language in other posts? So, therefore when I posted about enduring 50 minutes of cursing from the pulpit you took that as it was for your preacher exclusively? Do you also play "Jesus is my boyfriend" music?
Go back a few posts, I also said what you posted about your church sounded like a mix of Chuck Smith's Calvary Chapel, and Mark Driscoll's Mar's Hill Church, and said it was nothing new. Meaning tithe boxes in the back, 60 minutes of videos, and cussing preachers isn't exclusive to YOUR pastor's use of "everyday language."
Everyday Language, your words not mine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
That is not correct and you know it. Also the smarty remark about 60 minutes of video. Where did that come from?
From the same place where I posted the people have to endure listening to an hour of "Jesus is my boyfriend" music.
Do they do that in your church?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Our service includes a 5 minute pre service video that begins to play as people are wrapping up visiting and coming in and are being seated.
I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Halfway through it the lights are dimmed for the praise and worship service.
You think in the first century the Christians worshiped in the dark?
Why do "churches" (plural) dim the lights anyway?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
The only other videos during the service are a short (usually 30 seconds to a minute) PSA video for the churches next upcoming community service project and the a short (30 second to one minute) video introduction to whatever book of the bible we are going through or baptisms if it is a baptismal service.
I see.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
To state my pastors sermons were 50 minutes of cursing at people means you are delusional or not being honest.
You know something CC1, we must be getting too old to be posting on forums. I didn't even say "church" but said "groups" in an attempt not to be specific. I asked you what did you call growth, I posted about going through the gauntlet of the "group", then a list, which started with being dunked in whatever mode, shaking the preacher's hand, faithful tithing, or enduring a preacher cursing at you from the pulpit for 50 minutes after you watched 60 minutes of video, then tolerate 30 minutes of "Jesus is my boyfriend" music. Do these things apply to your congregation? Apparently they don't. Yet, you get offended as if they do?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
Oh, and to your last point people want to be baptized because it is their public identification with Christ and something we are told to do in the bible. A person who becomes a Christ follower will want to do the things the bible tells us to do as christians. The fruit of the spirit, gifts of the spirit, etc.
Oh, so you are saying since a person has the Holy Ghost he or she will therefore be led of the Spirit to be baptized? So if they don't get baptized they aren't led by the Spirit? You also said the Bible "tells" us Christians to "DO" things? So, getting baptized is something the Bible tells us to "DO" but if we don't do it then that's OK?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I don't expect a lot of old time Pentecostals on AFF to like my church or my pastors teaching but it would be nice if the criticisms were accurate and not lies or exaggerations.
Exaggerations? that maybe debatable, I guess I'm covering whole the emergent church movement? Again, what crosses your mind when you say old time Pentecostal?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
To intentionally mischaracterize is the same as lying. Yes EB I am talking about you.
Now that's being specific.
Hey, I listened to your preacher preach and I already posted my thoughts in this thread. Tell me, were they all filled with animosity?
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1
I am very surprised at the animosity in your posts.
Old Time Pentecost could you explain this to me?
Also if I offended you, I'm sorry.
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
You know something, as long as I have been around Churchanity this has always puzzled me? This sounds like a walking contradiction? Baptism is Biblical, and doing it in Jesus name is Biblically correct, BUT it isn't important?
Which logically would be followed by the neophyte saying "then why get wet?"
I know you can't see the quandary, but it makes no sense.
?
I see baptism as a means of grace, but I believe even a neophyte would see that this would be a non sequitur. There are many commands in the Bible that we should obey that do not convey the gift of salvation in and of themselves (e.g. evangelism, footwashing). Roman Catholics believe that the Eucharist perpetuates the remission of sin; if you hold the traditional Baptistic/Pentecostal view that the supper is simply a memorial that does not impart salvation-- do you believe someone would be justified in thinking you are wasting your time when you take communion?
Last edited by RunningOnFaith; 08-17-2014 at 09:51 PM.
I see baptism as a means of grace, but I believe even a neophyte would see that this would be a non sequitur. There are many commands in the Bible that we should obey that do not convey the gift of salvation in and of themselves (e.g. evangelism, footwashing). Roman Catholics believe that the Eucharist perpetuates the remission of sin; if you hold the traditional Baptistic/Pentecostal view that the supper is simply a memorial that does not impart salvation-- do you believe someone would be justified in thinking you are wasting your time when you take communion?
Why did Peter command Romans to be baptized?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
Well, EB, I would dare to quote both Peter and Paul's quotation of Ananias, "For the remission and washing away of your sins". (This is a combination of both aforementioned quotations by me and does not actually appear in this format. The quotations are from Acts 2:38 and Acts 22:16 and can be read in full at those references.)
__________________
I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
well we havent caught CC1 with 200 baptisms this year, but we havent gone a single week without at least 1 baptism for almost 2 months so im pretty stoked.
the high point was a sunday with 6....
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
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