Social drinking? - Page 51

Praxeas · #**501** 08-30-2014, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

So you would say that Jesus produced more alcohol to give to an intoxicated and incoherent crowd of people. Yet, you agree that drunkedness is a sin? Would it be o.k. for a christian to sell drugs for a living? Why not? Jesus (you are saying) contributed to people to get drunk so what is the difference? This isn't logical. God would tell me not to do something and then give me the stuff to do it with. Don't get drunk, but here is some more beer. That makes a lot of sense.

The No Drinking thing is a Western Taboo...specifically Here in America passed down from earlier social/religions movements

Read it again
Joh 2:3 When the wine ran out, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no wine left."
Joh 2:4 Jesus replied, "Woman, why are you saying this to me? My time has not yet come."
Joh 2:5 His mother told the servants, "Whatever he tells you, do it."
Joh 2:6 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washing, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus told the servants, "Fill the water jars with water." So they filled them up to the very top.
Joh 2:8 Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the head steward," and they did.
Joh 2:9 When the head steward tasted the water that had been turned to wine, not knowing where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), he called the bridegroom
Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!"
Joh 2:11 Jesus did this as the first of his miraculous signs, in Cana of Galilee. In this way he revealed his glory, and his disciples believed in him.

Praxeas · #**502** 08-30-2014, 04:52 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_views_on_alcohol

good samaritan · #**503** 08-30-2014, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It is choice, the tree of the knowledge of Good and Evil is set in the midst of the garden right next to the tree of life. Is God evil because He places the tree in reach of His first couple? Joshua tells the children of Israel choose this day who you will serve, as well as Elijah telling the children of Israel to choose between the false god Baal, or the true God of Israel. Choosing between the holy and the profane. We come into the Kingdom as little children through being born again, but we aren't to stay that way, we need to grow up, we must mature.

Everyone who knew the word of God at the wedding also knew that they needed to do the right thing as far as their community, and law deemed fit. The master of the feast wasn't intoxicated due to his own statement that he himself could tell the difference between the best and the worst. Mary the mother of Jesus wasn't intoxicated because she had her faculties about her when she asked her son to remedy the situation of running out of fermented wine at the feast. Jesus wasn't intoxicated due to His sober response to His mother. If there were people who were plastered at the wedding we will never know, or if everyone was sober as a judge, we know that the master of the feast, the servants who filled the jugs, Mary the mother of Jesus, and Jesus Himself were able to function quite well after being at the wedding where fermented alcoholic wine was being served. Just like I posted before food drunkenness is a sin, but the Bible doesn't tell us to hold a prohibition against food.

Now you are saying something that makes sense to me. I was under the impression that you were saying that everyone had well drank meant all of them were incoherent. If Jesus was furnishing wine to a group of people who were celebrating a wedding and he was providing something that was customary at feasts and not just giving alcohol to a complete group of drunks. Therefore it being the best wine could mean that it was because taste quality even if it was fermented.

I will still believe that it was unfermented and really don't think it matters either way for me because I wouldn't drink alcohol even if I could do it and be right. As I have said about my past, it would dangerous for me personally. Don't get drunk and you keep it right with scripture and possibly offend someone; Don't drink and you don't even have to worry about it at all. Every one can choose for theirself.

Praxeas · #**504** 08-30-2014, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Now you are saying something that makes sense to me. I was under the impression that you were saying that everyone had well drank meant all of them were incoherent. If Jesus was furnishing wine to a group of people who were celebrating a wedding and he was providing something that was customary at feasts and not just giving alcohol to a complete group of drunks. Therefore it being the best wine could mean that it was because taste quality even if it was fermented.

I will still believe that it was unfermented and really don't think it matters either way for me because I wouldn't drink alcohol even if I could do it and be right. As I have said about my past, it would dangerous for me personally. Don't get drunk and you keep it right with scripture and possibly offend someone; Don't drink and you don't even have to worry about it at all. Every one can choose for theirself.

The bible does not say "They were drunk". Rather it was the head "Host" who said "Normally you serve the best wine first and when everyone is drunk THEN you serve the bad wine" in response to Jesus making GOOD wine.

Clearly whatever Jesus made could have made someone drunk if they had enough

Praxeas · #**505** 08-30-2014, 05:46 PM

Joh 2:6 Now there were six stone water jars there for Jewish ceremonial washing, each holding twenty or thirty gallons.
Joh 2:7 Jesus told the servants, "Fill the water jars with water." So they filled them up to the very top.
Joh 2:8 Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the head steward," and they did.
Joh 2:9 When the head steward tasted the water that had been turned to wine, not knowing where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), he called the bridegroom
Joh 2:10 and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the cheaper wine when the guests are drunk. You have kept the good wine until now!"

ILG · #**506** 08-30-2014, 06:15 PM

I have a wine or wine cooler etc. a few times a year. <<gasp>>

endtimer · #**507** 08-30-2014, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ILG

I have a wine or wine cooler etc. a few times a year. <<gasp>>

Gasp is right! Didn't realize they still made wine coolers.

Evang.Benincasa · #**508** 08-30-2014, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by good samaritan

Now you are saying something that makes sense to me. I was under the impression that you were saying that everyone had well drank meant all of them were incoherent. If Jesus was furnishing wine to a group of people who were celebrating a wedding and he was providing something that was customary at feasts and not just giving alcohol to a complete group of drunks. Therefore it being the best wine could mean that it was because taste quality even if it was fermented.

I will still believe that it was unfermented and really don't think it matters either way for me because I wouldn't drink alcohol even if I could do it and be right. As I have said about my past, it would dangerous for me personally. Don't get drunk and you keep it right with scripture and possibly offend someone; Don't drink and you don't even have to worry about it at all. Every one can choose for theirself.

Well, if you still believe it wasn't fermented grapes then you would be wrong. Because it was fermented wine, and therefore the reason that the master of the feast makes the comment using a word which specifically means to be intoxicated. Is it important? Of course very important because anything else just doesn't make a bit of sense. Because we live in a culture that is increasingly becoming post Christian. Why? For the most part because of the nonsense propagated by Christians and their denominations, which leaves the un-church populace to think we don't even believe our own book. You stand there telling John Q un-Churched guy that John 2:10 means non alcoholic wine. He accepts your story, while he is thumbing through the internet on his smart phone. He finds all the information being offered by Prax and I on a multitude of different websites. He starts to offer you all this evidence. Yet, all you would say that it doesn't matter?

ixoye_val69 · #**509** 08-30-2014, 09:24 PM

Keep in mind that these Jewish wedding celebrations last a week so running out of wine would have been a big deal. The groom's family was responsible for providing all of the food and drink for the celebrations and from what I have read they could have been sued for a breach of hospitality to his guest. So Jesus making all of that wine was not for the purpose of keeping people drunk, or to cause them to sin...but to provide the necessary amount of wine needed to get through the week of celebrations. If all the wine was for only a day it would seem like a lot...but for a week? Not so much. Just an opinion but perhaps there were more people that showed up for these celebrations than was anticipated. Jesus made the wine...Jesus is not a sinner, so that is really all we need to know.

good samaritan · #**510** 08-30-2014, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Well, if you still believe it wasn't fermented grapes then you would be wrong. Because it was fermented wine, and therefore the reason that the master of the feast makes the comment using a word which specifically means to be intoxicated. Is it important? Of course very important because anything else just doesn't make a bit of sense. Because we live in a culture that is increasingly becoming post Christian. Why? For the most part because of the nonsense propagated by Christians and their denominations, which leaves the un-church populace to think we don't even believe our own book. You stand there telling John Q un-Churched guy that John 2:10 means non alcoholic wine. He accepts your story, while he is thumbing through the internet on his smart phone. He finds all the information being offered by Prax and I on a multitude of different websites. He starts to offer you all this evidence. Yet, all you would say that it doesn't matter?

In the last year during a Bible study (not that anyone in the group even drink) this subject came up. I didn't pull out my six shooters and start telling everyone it is wrong. I taught against drunkedness for a fact and expounded on why it is better not to drink. We didn't even get into the fermentation issue although it may be valid.

I misunderstood your interpretation of the miracle of water into wine at the wedding. I thought you represented it that everyone at the wedding was so drunk they were incoherent and then Jesus breaks out some more to give so they are just going to get drunker.

The scripture says they ran out. Possibly at the point that Jesus turned the water into wine not anyone had yet became drunk it would be just speculation to say either way. I thought you meant Jesus performed that miracle for a bunch of drunks and that could possibly hurt some newborn in the faith. We have common ground it is a sin to get drunk.

I think me and John Q will have enough other things to learn about as to not get hung up on one issue. if John Q wants to get toasted every night he has that freedom I will love him and try to help him get close to the Lord.