Is there going to be a rapture????

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Eternal judgment deserves its own thread.

You introduced this matter into this discussion concerning Bro Eastman's question about an "alleged" rapture, so why are you refusing to respond to a legitimate question regarding your own statement? I'm not trying to be contentious, simply trying to have you clarify something that you have asserted as if it were an indisputable scriptural truth?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Lafon

You introduced this matter into this discussion concerning Bro Eastman's question about an "alleged" rapture, so why are you refusing to respond to a legitimate question regarding your own statement? I'm not trying to be contentious, simply trying to have you clarify something that you have asserted as if it were an indisputable scriptural truth?

Where did I introduce the topic of eternal judgment in this thread? I thought I responded to a question about it.

Nonetheless HERE is where I get the idea that souls are destroyed in Hell.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28



There it is! Do you now believe?

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Where did I introduce the topic of eternal judgment in this thread? I thought I responded to a question about it.

Nonetheless HERE is where I get the idea that souls are destroyed in Hell.

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28



There it is! Do you now believe?

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, KJV)

The English word "destroy" (a verb), is defined in Webster's Dictionary as "to put an end to: ruin." The Greek word from which it has been translated is "apollumi," a strengthened form of the Greek word "ollumi," and signifies "to destroy utterly;" in the Middle Voice" it implies "to perish."

The idea is not extinction but ruin, loss, not of being, but of well-being. This is clear from its use, as, e.g., of the marring of wine skins, Luke 5:37; of lost sheep, i.e., lost to the shepherd, metaphorical of spiritual destitution, of the loss of well-being in the case of the unsaved hereafter.

Therefore the word "destroy," as used by Jesus Christ in the referenced scriptural text, does not mean or convey "annihilation," which implies "complete destruction, or disintegration" of the substantive body and invisible soul of man in the fires of hell, as you assert. Simply because you believe that it does is not cause for me, or others, to accept your understanding of this word.

It is not my objective to "make light" of your understanding, rather to voice my differing view for the consideration of its merits by yourself and others.

Seeing that God created the invisible soul of mankind, male and female, in His image and after His likeness (Genesis 1:26-27), then is it unreasonable for one to infer that the soul is eternal for He is eternal, and as such, cannot ever be brought to nothing?

Respectfully submitted.

[Michael The Disciple]

Allow Christ to set the definition please.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, KJV)

In light of the sentence context I believe HE has shown us what he meant by "destroy".


The Greek word is no. 622 in Strongs. The first 2 meanings are to "destroy fully" and to "perish".

Many verses in the New Testament show this word to destroy as to kill or be killed.

Peace and love.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Lafon

I am well aware of what the word "rapture" implies, however, its that part of its teaching which alleges that God will grant an exemption to some from experiencing death, but will instead instantly change their mortal bodies to ones that are immortal and of heavenly substance, that I'm vigorously opposed to and adamantly reject. Should such be the case, then it would imply that God is unjust, unfair, or unrighteous, and we know that He is not.

The term is the issue unless we stress the misapplied teachings hat go along with the term that really have nothing to do with the term. But I chatted with you already about lack of death and felt you misread some passages, so no use repeating that here.

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Allow Christ to set the definition please.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." (Matthew 10:28, KJV)

In light of the sentence context I believe HE has shown us what he meant by "destroy".


The Greek word is no. 622 in Strongs. The first 2 meanings are to "destroy fully" and to "perish".

Many verses in the New Testament show this word to destroy as to kill or be killed.

Peace and love.

MTD, just a question. The scripture says fear them which can kill a body, but can't kill a soul - note that the word "kill" is not repeated - your reasoning would make sense if the verse continued, "but rather fear him which is able to kill both the body and soul in hell."

Why do you think the word "kill" was not used in the second part of the verse? And why was a different word used - destroy - which has already been shown to mean something less than to kill.

Thanks.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Carl

The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life. Sounds like a rather severe justice. A person dies never to live again. Does God have to torture someone to be just?

Brother, please consider this passage. The Lord can do whatever seems fit to Him...

Mark 9: 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

MTD, just a question. The scripture says fear them which can kill a body, but can't kill a soul - note that the word "kill" is not repeated - your reasoning would make sense if the verse continued, "but rather fear him which is able to kill both the body and soul in hell."

Why do you think the word "kill" was not used in the second part of the verse? And why was a different word used - destroy - which has already been shown to mean something less than to kill.

Thanks.

Well Jesus COULD have used the same word but he rather used a word meaning the same thing. That happens all the time in the Bible and life today.

Has the word "destroy" been proven to mean something less than to kill?

Let us see.

Greek word 622 in Strongs.

13And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. Matt 2:13

So does Greek word here mean less than to kill?

4Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. Matt 12:14

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Matt 21:38-41

9Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? Luke 6:9

54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. Luke 9:56

47And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him, 48And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

Now the word "destroyed" in these verses is the same exact Greek word 622. It is not a different word than "destroy" in Matt 10:28.

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29

Did that fire KILL everyone left in Sodom? Or did it do something less?

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:27

9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 1 Cor 10:9-10

Now the word "perish" in the following verses is the exact same Greek word as used in Matt 10:28. This is not a different word.

52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

So does this Greek word Strongs 622 mean something less than to kill?

Here?

37And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. 38And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

Here?

1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here?

31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Luke 13:31

Also note in this verse the Pharisees said Herod would KILL Jesus. Jesus responded by saying a prophet must not PERISH out of Jerusalem. This is the same word usage by Jesus in Matt 10:28. God is able to KILL or DESTROY (Greek word 622) mens souls in Gehenna.

Here?

17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! Luke 15:17

Now consider this. There are yet more verses proving that this Greek word is used concerning killing or dying. I wont post any more because if one does not get the point after what I have posted adding more wont help.

For an immortal soul believer to say "destroy" cannot mean to kill or bring about death is like a Trinitarian saying "one" does not really mean "one".

Peace and love.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well Jesus COULD have used the same word but he rather used a word meaning the same thing. That happens all the time in the Bible and life today.

Has the word "destroy" been proven to mean something less than to kill?

Let us see.

Greek word 622 in Strongs.

13And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him. Matt 2:13

So does Greek word here mean less than to kill?

4Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him. Matt 12:14

38But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance. 39And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him. 40When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? 41They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Matt 21:38-41

9Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? Luke 6:9

54And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. Luke 9:56

47And he taught daily in the temple. But the chief priests and the scribes and the chief of the people sought to destroy him, 48And could not find what they might do: for all the people were very attentive to hear him.

Now the word "destroyed" in these verses is the same exact Greek word 622. It is not a different word than "destroy" in Matt 10:28.

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29

Did that fire KILL everyone left in Sodom? Or did it do something less?

26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man. 27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all. Luke 17:27

9Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. 10Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. 1 Cor 10:9-10

Now the word "perish" in the following verses is the exact same Greek word as used in Matt 10:28. This is not a different word.

52Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

So does this Greek word Strongs 622 mean something less than to kill?

Here?

37And there arose a great storm of wind, and the waves beat into the ship, so that it was now full. 38And he was in the hinder part of the ship, asleep on a pillow: and they awake him, and say unto him, Master, carest thou not that we perish?

Here?

1There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices. 2And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things? 3I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. 4Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? 5I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Here?

31The same day there came certain of the Pharisees, saying unto him, Get thee out, and depart hence: for Herod will kill thee. 32And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected. 33Nevertheless I must walk to day, and to morrow, and the day following: for it cannot be that a prophet perish out of Jerusalem. Luke 13:31

Also note in this verse the Pharisees said Herod would KILL Jesus. Jesus responded by saying a prophet must not PERISH out of Jerusalem. This is the same word usage by Jesus in Matt 10:28. God is able to KILL or DESTROY (Greek word 622) mens souls in Gehenna.

Here?

17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! Luke 15:17

Now consider this. There are yet more verses proving that this Greek word is used concerning killing or dying. I wont post any more because if one does not get the point after what I have posted adding more wont help.

For an immortal soul believer to say "destroy" cannot mean to kill or bring about death is like a Trinitarian saying "one" does not really mean "one".

Peace and love.

MTD, it appears that you're "hung up" on the meaning or intent of a single word; in this instance its "destroy," while completely disallowing consideration of the "righteousness" of God. I would ask that you consider this:

Man is comprised of three components, or parts. These are; body and soul and spirit (or breath). When Moses was inspired of God to write about the creation of mankind, he first described that component or part of every human being which was created "in the image and after the likeness of God," that is, the eternal, invisible SOUL. I describe the SOUL as an "eternal" part of every human being, for it is THIS component of man which God created "in his own image," and as the Scriptures explicitly assert, God is an eternally existing, or ever-living Spirit. Therefore common logic lets us know that the SOUL of man is also eternally existing, and as such it will always exist; hence, it is an IMMORTAL entity.

For anyone to even suggest, much less explicitly assert, that God will cause the eternally existing SOUL of the wicked to be consumed in the lake of fire, is a clear indication they're not properly discerning what the inspired written word of God asserts about the eternal fate of the wicked. Would not common logic and reasoning cause one to conclude that that which is incorporeal, that is, the SOUL of mankind, cannot be consumed by fire, or by any other means for that matter? For one to embrace and propagate such an erroneous interpretation of our Lord's words found recorded in Matthew 10:28 (as you've done), dispenses with, or otherwise seeks to render void God's promise of eternal life.

Why should one who perhaps has no desire to live forever, even expend a moment of their time upon the earth in the present life to heed and obey God's commandment, when they can simply endure for their allotted time here, die and then after a period of time spent in the lake of fire, simply cease to exist? Don't you realize that THIS is precisely what you're saying by publicly asserting that the SOUL of mankind is not immortal?

This is why I believe in the immortality of the SOUL of mankind, which will not, nor can it ever be "destroyed" in the lake of fire.

Warmest regards.

[Carl]

Originally Posted by Sean

Brother, please consider this passage. The Lord can do whatever seems fit to Him...

Mark 9: 43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 46 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: 48 where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

Would a person enter into the kingdom maimed? No, they would be made whole being given a new glorified body at the resurrection. The point being made in these verses is that a person could cut off every extremity and be nothing but a stump and still have a wicked heart.

Since the immortal soul concept is the basis for everlasting torment then these verses can't be talking about it since the physical body is the subject. Are there actual worms in hell? Do they devour the wicked? A long held belief was that the devil and his demons would do the tormenting.