I think we should slow down and seek balance with both the Scripture and the Spirit.
Romans 1:18-32, illustrates the condition of a reprobate sinner who has plunged into the utter depths of all manner of sin. While the passage mentions homosexual sin, it isn't specifically about homosexual sin. Let's read it...
Romans 1:18-27 English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. 29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.
The passage illustrates the utterly lost and sinful condition of the worst kind of reprobate. But it doesn't talk one bit about grace. This is a person whom God has cut off. This isn't a person who as turned to Christ, obeyed the Gospel, loves God and now struggles with the sinful nature.
God is able to save. The sin debt has been paid in full. Christ paid your entire sin debt in full... in fact... Christ paid the sin debt of all who will come to Him. That means Jesus will not cast out one who struggles with sexual sin. Jesus is patient, loving, kind, full of mercy towards His own. God has forgiven me for various sins throughout my life... and even sins I'm unaware of. He has had the very same grace towards you, if you have obeyed the Gospel. Paul said...
1 Corinthians 6:9-14 English Standard Version (ESV)
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
12 “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything. 13 “Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food”—and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
The unrighteous who have refused to obey the Gospel will not inherit the kingdom of God. Do not be deceived. They have committed all manner of sin. And you know what?... We were all like them and have committed many of those very same sins. But we have experienced the spiritual reality of Justification, through both the name and Spirit of Jesus. We all stand before God as though we never sinned. Being declared by divine decree... sinless, forgiven, righteous, and holy. And it is not our own sinlessness, righteousness, or holiness that we stand in. It is Christ's own sinless righteousness and holiness that we stand in. Yes, even those who struggle with sexual sin.
Those who are given over to sin and rebellion do not desire Christ. They say that meats are for the belly and the belly for meats. In other words, they believe the body is for pleasures and pleasures for the body. But those who have refused the Gospel will discover that God will destroy both their pleasures and their bodies. The body isn't made for any sinful lifestyle. I do not believe that Christians are entirely sinless as it relates to behavior because we still live in fallen, carnal, and fleshly bodies. Our minds must be renewed daily. However, while we may not be "sinless"... true Christians do "sin less". We are not to be dominated by anything. We are not to allow it to define us. We are not to allow it to be something greater than Christ in our lives. The body isn't meant for sexual immorality. Our sexuality is to be expressed reverently, lovingly, and joyously. We are not to be dominated by carnal passions that drive us to exploit others and use them for personal gratification. Whatever form our sexuality might take at any given point in time (and yes, we're all very different)... it is to be reverent, loving, and joyful. It is to be dedicated to our mate. Surrendered entirely to the one we love.
And again, this is the problem with homosexual sin. Homosexuality typically doesn't manifest the standard of love and devotion between mates as required by God. Most relationships of this nature are transient and exploitive. They go on using and being used. And if you look closely at the passages that condemn homosexuality... it condemns all exploitive, self-centered and self-gratifying sin.
Some have argued that there are exceptions to the rule. That some homosexual relationships are truly as loving and kind as heterosexual relationships. If that is true, I bid them peace and leave them for God to judge. I wish no harm on anyone. I rejoice with anyone who has found any measure of happiness. However, I've yet to see a homosexual relationship truly meet the mark that I believe God desires in a soul-mate relationship.
So, do I believe that homosexuality is sinful? Yes.
Do I believe that the very same patience, grace, and kindness that has saved all who have entered the body of Christ is extended to the homosexual who has humbled themselves in brokenness and contrition? Yes.
Does God love the homosexual? Yes.
Do I believe that all homosexuals are automatically doomed to burn in Hell? No. However, they have to obey the Gospel we all are called to obey, confess their condition, and seek for God's grace and mercy.
Do homosexual relationships meet the standard of love that God requires between mates? Some say yes. However, I've yet to see it personally. Therefore, I'll let God be the judge.
Let's say we have a man who has received and experienced the Gospel through Acts 2:38. He repented of sin, was water baptized in Jesus name, and filled with the Holy Spirit. He is solidly Oneness, having received the revelation from the Spirit. Yet he has struggled with homosexual proclivities his entire life. He married after high school and had two children. However, his marriage failed. He stumbled and broke his vows. They tried counseling, but his wife couldn't get beyond his struggle and love him for who he was. She soon resorted to drugs and drinking and loose living. He got custody of the kids. He returned to church a broken man. He tried to rededicate his life to God. He prayed for deliverance. But his temptations remained. He tried deliverance cessions. He tried Christian counseling. Nothing seemed to "change him". Some days were good and victorious, some days were days of absolute failure. Having homosexual tendencies and struggles, he never felt quite accepted by the church. So, his attendance wasn't regular. The average was often two to three services a month. He eventually found a discrete and dedicated companion. One day he was diagnosed with cancer. Soon he was given only weeks to live. Clinging to his faith in a loving and forgiving God he continued to confess the sins of his life as his health became worse. His companion stood by him and faithfully cared for him and his children as his health failed him. Soon, he was bedridden and dying. Having been disowned by his parents and wife long gone... he died alone in a room with only his companion and two children by his side... all praying that God have mercy on his soul.
Now, let's say we have a man who is a solid Baptist pastor. Married with 3 kids. He has never experienced the Gospel through Acts 2:38. In fact, he believes tongues are of the devil, or at best... a self-derived delusion. He believes in the Trinity and has renounced Oneness as a heresy. He married his high school sweetheart and both were virgins on their wedding night. However, he has struggled with the sins of the flesh as all men do. And he has repented of them and confesses his sins and weaknesses daily. He's a dynamic speaker with bookings for the next year and a half. He has also written 6 books that have been top sellers in Christian book stores. One is a theological commentary on Christology recommended by CARM. He even began supporting the politics of Defending Marriage and vehemently condemned the homosexual agenda, again by writing several books. One day he is diagnosed with cancer. He hid it from the congregation for some time. Soon he's given only weeks to live. His wife stood by him and faithfully cared for him as his health failed him. Soon, he was bedridden and dying. Having been so faithful to the ministry, he has thousands praying for him and hundreds supporting his family. He passes away with his wife, two brothers, children, and grandchildren singing Amazing Grace by his side.
I tell you... it will be more tolerable for the homosexual than the Baptist pastor in the Day of Judgment.
Notice... they say that Jesus never talked about homosexuality. However, I tend to disagree...
Matthew 10:14-15 English Standard Version (ESV)
14 And if anyone will not receive you or listen to your words, shake off the dust from your feet when you leave that house or town. 15 Truly, I say to you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
Matthew 11:21-24 English Standard Version (ESV)
21 “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable on the day of judgment for Tyre and Sidon than for you. 23 And you, Capernaum, will you be exalted to heaven? You will be brought down to Hades. For if the mighty works done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.”
Luke 10:10-12 English Standard Version (ESV)
10 But whenever you enter a town and they do not receive you, go into its streets and say, 11 ‘Even the dust of your town that clings to our feet we wipe off against you. Nevertheless know this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12 I tell you, it will be more bearable on that day for Sodom than for that town.
Based on Christ's own words... it will be more bearable for a city of unrepentant homosexuals in the day of judgment than it will be for a people full of religious arrogance and pride.
Really, Aquila? Is it more tolerable for the homosexual man because he experienced Acts 238?
The baptist preacher who lived a life devoted to God gets less mercy because he's a trinitarian?
It's not so much that the Baptist is a Trinitarian (although Trinitarianism is a gross distortion of who God is). It's that this specific Baptist in my example believes that tongues are of the devil. That's one of the greatest forms of blasphemy.
Matthew 12:31-32 (ESV)
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
Based on this text... homosexuality can be forgiven before blasphemy of the Holy Spirit can ever be forgiven.
A transgendered porn star would have a greater chance at making Heaven than a Baptist pastor who believes that tongues are of the devil.
what difference does it make if we personalize it?
the problem appears like baiting...Daring someone to condemn Timmy's son to hell. That's like trying to bait someone here to use cuss words so they can be banned.
Why do you need to hear "Timmy your son is going to hell"? Please explain why you need to hear that? Would that help you somehow?
It would not help me. It might help some of you guys understand better the ramifications of what you say. Somehow, it just seems easier to say "every sinner who doesn't repent will burn forever in the lake of fire" than to say that about, and to, a particular person. Again, see Mike's response!
If my son were in front of you, in person, right now, would you say to him, "If you don't get saved before you die, you will burn forever in the lake of fire, and you will deserve it, because you disobeyed God"?
And see Steve Epley's waffling! My goodness! He even admitted that he believes the Bible teaches that the lost will burn in hell (come on, we all know that people use "hell" as a kind of synonym for the lake of fire, even if it isn't technically accurate ), and he says all trinnies are lost, and yet: my grandmother might be in heaven. Yes. He said all that. Why?
(I was going to stay out of this thread, but I guess we can talk about hell here. Or shall we take it to a new thread?)
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
That is a crazy belief!!! Literal "burning in Hell" is a doctrine of man, created to manipulate and control others for the purpose, well intended or not, of religious leaders.
God is a heavenly Father, if you would not treat YOUR child in such a manner, where in God's name to you believe that love for your child came from???? You are created in HIS image, where did it come from????
The traditional definition of HELL is big fat human lie!! God has ways of bringing humanity to His purposes, but that is not it. He could create any means for man to be saved, is He so weak or evil that that is what he would do??
There is much better and scriptural ways to interpret the Word, which glorifies God and saves mankind, what is it in man that much embrace the absolutely worst of all NEWS, it is supposed to be GOOD NEWS! And it is!!
__________________ For it is written, "As I live, says the Lord every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God. (Romans 14:11- NASB)
), and he says all trinnies are lost, and yet: my grandmother might be in heaven. Yes. He said all that. Why?
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