Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[KeptByTheWord]

I've been thinking about the fact that Jesus did NOT have an earthly father, but he did have an earthly, mother - Mary. So from this understanding, we have to acknowledge that Jesus received his flesh/blood characteristics and personality from his mother Mother, but his spirit/soul was divine.

This would also help to understand how Jesus could possess both a flesh/human nature, and also divine. Quite simple, really. The flesh/blood part of Jesus could indeed pray to the Father because it was the human nature acknowledging the divine part of his nature.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I've been thinking about the fact that Jesus did NOT have an earthly father, but he did have an earthly, mother - Mary. So from this understanding, we have to acknowledge that Jesus received his flesh/blood characteristics and personality from his mother Mother, but his spirit/soul was divine.

This would also help to understand how Jesus could possess both a flesh/human nature, and also divine. Quite simple, really. The flesh/blood part of Jesus could indeed pray to the Father because it was the human nature acknowledging the divine part of his nature.

If Jesus did not have a real human spirit of his own, he would not be a real human.

Notice, when the Father(Holy Ghost) left him, he stayed alive on the cross, but when his human spirit(small "s") left him, he immediately died. Just like any other human does.

[Aquila]

Jesus had a distinct human body, human soul (will, reason, emotion), and human spirit (breath of life, living essence).

I don't think anyone would disagree that Jesus had a human body. However, here is a Scripture for support:

Colossians 1:21-22 (KJV)
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jesus had a distinct human soul (will, reason/knowing/thoughts, emotion):

Luke 22:42 (KJV)
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mark 13:32 (KJV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

John 11:35 (KJV)
Jesus wept.

Matthew 9:36 (KJV)
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

John 14:31 (KJV)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Jesus had a distinct human spirit (breath of life, living essence)

Luke 23:46 (KJV)
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus was a complete human being in union with God through mutual indwelling. God permeated every aspect of Christ and through this union of human body, soul, and spirit with God... they partook in one another's very nature and identity. Christ describes this "oneness" as a mutual indwelling:

John 10:38 (KJV)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Again, please note... There are plenty of ways in the ancient language wherein Jesus could have said, "I am the Father and the Father is me." However, this is NOT what Jesus says. Jesus says, "the Father is IN me, and I IN him". This doesn't speak of "sameness"... it draws a clear distinction through personal pronouns and uses terms that clearly denote "mutual indwelling".

We do well to speak in terms that Jesus used. The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father.

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus had a distinct human body, human soul (will, reason, emotion), and human spirit (breath of life, living essence).

I don't think anyone would disagree that Jesus had a human body. However, here is a Scripture for support:

Colossians 1:21-22 (KJV)
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jesus had a distinct human soul (will, reason/knowing/thoughts, emotion):

Luke 22:42 (KJV)
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mark 13:32 (KJV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

John 11:35 (KJV)
Jesus wept.

Matthew 9:36 (KJV)
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

John 14:31 (KJV)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Jesus had a distinct human spirit (breath of life, living essence)

Luke 23:46 (KJV)
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus was a complete human being in union with God through mutual indwelling. God permeated every aspect of Christ and through this union of human body, soul, and spirit with God... they partook in one another's very nature and identity. Christ describes this "oneness" as a mutual indwelling:

John 10:38 (KJV)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Again, please note... There are plenty of ways in the ancient language wherein Jesus could have said, "I am the Father and the Father is me." However, this is NOT what Jesus says. Jesus says, "the Father is IN me, and I IN him". This doesn't speak of "sameness"... it draws a clear distinction through personal pronouns and uses terms that clearly denote "mutual indwelling".

We do well to speak in terms that Jesus used. The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus had a distinct human body, human soul (will, reason, emotion), and human spirit (breath of life, living essence).

I don't think anyone would disagree that Jesus had a human body. However, here is a Scripture for support:

Colossians 1:21-22 (KJV)
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jesus had a distinct human soul (will, reason/knowing/thoughts, emotion):

Luke 22:42 (KJV)
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mark 13:32 (KJV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

John 11:35 (KJV)
Jesus wept.

Matthew 9:36 (KJV)
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

John 14:31 (KJV)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Jesus had a distinct human spirit (breath of life, living essence)

Luke 23:46 (KJV)
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus was a complete human being in union with God through mutual indwelling. God permeated every aspect of Christ and through this union of human body, soul, and spirit with God... they partook in one another's very nature and identity. Christ describes this "oneness" as a mutual indwelling:

John 10:38 (KJV)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Again, please note... There are plenty of ways in the ancient language wherein Jesus could have said, "I am the Father and the Father is me." However, this is NOT what Jesus says. Jesus says, "the Father is IN me, and I IN him". This doesn't speak of "sameness"... it draws a clear distinction through personal pronouns and uses terms that clearly denote "mutual indwelling".

We do well to speak in terms that Jesus used. The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father.

Brother, this post needs to go viral!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

When do you believe that the second personality come into existence?



Can you give an example?

When did the second personality come into existence? I don't know for sure. I assume it came into existence sometime between Jesus being conceived and being born. But it could have preexisted his conception and birth if God desired it.

An example of a person with multiple personalities? Sure, it's not a good example IMO but it should suffice to show that a single person can have multiple personalities: Multiple Personality Disorder.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus had a distinct human body, human soul (will, reason, emotion), and human spirit (breath of life, living essence).

I don't think anyone would disagree that Jesus had a human body. However, here is a Scripture for support:

Colossians 1:21-22 (KJV)
21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Jesus had a distinct human soul (will, reason/knowing/thoughts, emotion):

Luke 22:42 (KJV)
Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

Mark 13:32 (KJV)
32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.

John 11:35 (KJV)
Jesus wept.

Matthew 9:36 (KJV)
But when he saw the multitudes, he was moved with compassion on them, because they fainted, and were scattered abroad, as sheep having no shepherd.

John 14:31 (KJV)
But that the world may know that I love the Father; and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.

Jesus had a distinct human spirit (breath of life, living essence)

Luke 23:46 (KJV)
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Jesus was a complete human being in union with God through mutual indwelling. God permeated every aspect of Christ and through this union of human body, soul, and spirit with God... they partook in one another's very nature and identity. Christ describes this "oneness" as a mutual indwelling:

John 10:38 (KJV)
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Again, please note... There are plenty of ways in the ancient language wherein Jesus could have said, "I am the Father and the Father is me." However, this is NOT what Jesus says. Jesus says, "the Father is IN me, and I IN him". This doesn't speak of "sameness"... it draws a clear distinction through personal pronouns and uses terms that clearly denote "mutual indwelling".

We do well to speak in terms that Jesus used. The Father was in the Son and the Son in the Father.

If it walks and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Aquila you are espousing a view that by itself doesn't say Jesus is God. Everything you say of Jesus testifies that you believe he is just a man, albeit a "special" man but just a man nonetheless.

Sure you can tack on the end of such statements that Jesus is God, but what you are really saying at that point is that being God doesn't require Jesus to actually be God himself. Your explanation leads to more contradictions than it answers IMO.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

When did the second personality come into existence? I don't know for sure. I assume it came into existence sometime between Jesus being conceived and being born. But it could have preexisted his conception and birth if God desired it.

I believe it came into being and began developing at conception. However, if it pre-existed... we'd have to acknowledge a distinct and pre-existent center of consciousness within God that is distinct from the Father. And my friend... that is marching very close to the realm of speculative Trinitarian thought.

An example of a person with multiple personalities? Sure, it's not a good example IMO but it should suffice to show that a single person can have multiple personalities: Multiple Personality Disorder.

So the only example you have is from a mental disorder? I'm describing a God who is incarnate in the man Jesus Christ... making that human being both man and God... and you're describing a God who can only be described in terms of exhibiting signs of Multiple Personality Disorder?

C'mon. Think about this. God was IN Christ. It makes sense... and... it's a biblical description used by Paul himself:

2 Corinthians 5:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, ...

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by jfrog

If it walks and quacks like a duck then it's a duck. Aquila you are espousing a view that by itself doesn't say Jesus is God. Everything you say of Jesus testifies that you believe he is just a man, albeit a "special" man but just a man nonetheless.

Sure you can tack on the end of such statements that Jesus is God, but what you are really saying at that point is that being God doesn't require Jesus to actually be God himself. Your explanation leads to more contradictions than it answers IMO.

jfrog...

If I have two glasses that are half full... one half full of wine... and the other half full of water... and I pour the first glass into the second causing the wine to be in the water and the water in the wine... is the second glass filled with wine or water? Both. If that humanity, the man Jesus Christ, was in the Father and the Father in Him... He is both Himself and the Father.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe it came into being and began developing at conception. However, if it pre-existed... we'd have to acknowledge a distinct and pre-existent center of consciousness within God that is distinct from the Father. And my friend... that is marching very close to the realm of speculative Trinitarian thought.



So the only example you have is from a mental disorder? I'm describing a God who is incarnate in the man Jesus Christ... making that human being both man and God... and you're describing a God who can only be described in terms of exhibiting signs of Multiple Personality Disorder?

C'mon. Think about this. God was IN Christ. It makes sense... and... it's a biblical description used by Paul himself:

2 Corinthians 5:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, ...

You asked for proof of concept. I gave proof of concept. Now obviously God can exhibit both of his personalities at the same time unlike a person that has Multiple Personality Disorder. Obviously a person with multiple personality disorder has a problem. That doesn't necessitate that every person with multiple personalities (especially in the case of God) has a problem by having them.