Forgiveness only happens with Forgiveness

[Jermyn Davidson]

Is it possible for a man to have have hurt, bitterness, and unforgiveness in his heart and NOT know it?

Is it possible for a person to even be hateful and not know that he is wrong?

[MarkBelosa]

Originally Posted by jfrog

How does this reconcile with the thought that we are forgiven by Christ dying for our sins? Was Christ's death alone not enough, must we still forgive others in order to obtain forgiveness as Jesus said in Matthew 6:14-15?

Any thoughts or opinions or comments?

Originally Posted by shazeep

amen
What is 'faith in Christ,' or 'obedience to the Gospel?' I submit that these are some religious words, that religious people say--quite possibly even meaning them; and even in those cases, quite possibly hypocritical. So, i look for forgiving people, over the other, to be called 'faithful servant.'

"With the measure you use, it will be measured to you," so I'm not sure how you might justify this statement? Although surely i am just lost in the semantics here, i think the first one may largely come from the other two. Or wholly.

Correct me if I am wrong but the original post read like forgiving a person is one of the things you need to do in order to be saved.

When I mentioned faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, I was talking about how a person gains entrance to the kingdom.

faith in Christ (accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior)
gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Jesus)
obedience to the gospel (repentance, water baptism in Jesus Name, Spirit baptism)

Salvation for me has past, present, and future tenses.
I can say that I was saved (through faith and obedience to the gospel)
I am saved (freedom from the power of sin; I am no longer slave to it)
I will be saved (resurrection/glorification)

Of course, forgiveness is important and it is part of holy living (inward holiness or Christlikeness). And as previously pointed out from one of the other posts, an unforgiving spirit hinders our prayers. I only said what I said because of the question "Was Christ's death alone not enough?"

Forgiving others, I would say falls under repentance if we are to talk about entrance to the kingdom.
Once saved, a Christian must continue to practice it, else, he won't be forgiven if commits sin again, and this would endanger his soul. He might lose his salvation.

Hope this clarifies it.

[MarkBelosa]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Is it possible for a man to have have hurt, bitterness, and unforgiveness in his heart and NOT know it?

Is it possible for a person to even be hateful and not know that he is wrong?

Is it possible to be blinded by one's desires? The heart is deceitful and desperately wicked. Who can know it?

An un-regenerated man may possibly be blinded or become unaware of having bitterness esp after a long time. A born again Christian, on the other hand, would probably be more aware of what's going on in his heart and mind because God is light and he exposes that which is in the dark. If a Christian refuses to follow the voice of God's Spirit, his heart may become hardened and he might become blind to his own ways. Just my thoughts.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

We all know these verses but I don't think anyone ever ponders enough on their doctrinal significance.

Matthew 6:14-15
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Repentance and baptism and receiving the Holy Spirit aren't enough. We must forgive others or we will not be forgiven. How does this reconcile with the thought that we are forgiven by Christ dying for our sins? Was Christ's death alone not enough, must we still forgive others in order to obtain forgiveness as Jesus said in Matthew 6:14-15?
Any thoughts or opinions or comments?

Repentance, baptism in Jesus' NAME, and receiving the Holy Spirit is definitely enough for salvation. Surely the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has redeemed (bought) ALL men: but not all men are saved. It is the gospel that saves; it is the doctrine that keeps us saved.

Matt. 6:14, is the calling to repent; in it we repent of having offended God, and we must come to terms of also having been offended. If we cannot forgive those who offended us, neither have we truly repented of having offended God! In other words, we must show mercy, to obtain mercy.

"Mercy rejoices against judgment." Surely all men have sinned; all men deserve the punishment of death. But mercy suspended God's righteous judgment, until grace entered our hearts.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

Repentance, baptism in Jesus' NAME, and receiving the Holy Spirit is definitely enough for salvation. Surely the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross has redeemed (bought) ALL men: but not all men are saved. It is the gospel that saves; it is the doctrine that keeps us saved.

Matt. 6:14, is the calling to repent; in it we repent of having offended God, and we must come to terms of also having been offended. If we cannot forgive those who offended us, neither have we truly repented of having offended God! In other words, we must show mercy, to obtain mercy.

"Mercy rejoices against judgment." Surely all men have sinned; all men deserve the punishment of death. But mercy suspended God's righteous judgment, until grace entered our hearts.

Then what do you make of Jesus words? If you forgive others the father will forgive you. If you don't forgive others the father will not forgive you.

In other words if a man has repented been baptized and received the Holy Ghost but doesn't forgive others doesnt that mean that according to Jesus that God won't forgive him?

[shazeep]

amen--especially today, imo, when those first three have been so distorted. Or a better way to put it might be that the message that brought the candidates for the first three has been so distorted.

Originally Posted by MarkBelosa

Correct me if I am wrong but the original post read like forgiving a person is one of the things you need to do in order to be saved.

When I mentioned faith in Christ and obedience to the gospel, I was talking about how a person gains entrance to the kingdom.

faith in Christ (accepting Jesus as Lord and Savior)
gospel (death, burial, resurrection of Jesus)
obedience to the gospel (repentance, water baptism in Jesus Name, Spirit baptism)

Salvation for me has past, present, and future tenses.
I can say that I was saved (through faith and obedience to the gospel)
I am saved (freedom from the power of sin; I am no longer slave to it)
I will be saved (resurrection/glorification)

Of course, forgiveness is important and it is part of holy living (inward holiness or Christlikeness). And as previously pointed out from one of the other posts, an unforgiving spirit hinders our prayers. I only said what I said because of the question "Was Christ's death alone not enough?"

Forgiving others, I would say falls under repentance if we are to talk about entrance to the kingdom.
Once saved, a Christian must continue to practice it, else, he won't be forgiven if commits sin again, and this would endanger his soul. He might lose his salvation.

Hope this clarifies it.

well, nicely put. But--being deliberately obtuse here--what is 'saved' then? i think forgiving a person is one of the things you need to do in order to be saved.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Is it possible for a man to have have hurt, bitterness, and unforgiveness in his heart and NOT know it?

Is it possible for a person to even be hateful and not know that he is wrong?

'hateful' easily becomes justified as 'righteous indignation,' etc. in many minds.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Then what do you make of Jesus words? If you forgive others the father will forgive you. If you don't forgive others the father will not forgive you.
In other words if a man has repented been baptized and received the Holy Ghost but doesn't forgive others doesnt that mean that according to Jesus that God won't forgive him?

A person repents: has agreed that he is a sinner needing salvation; that, essentially he is wrong and God is right;
The person is baptized: the sins are remitted, has, believed and accepted the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus;
Received the Holy Spirit: in other words, has been received into the kingdom of God.

(1) If the person was offended PRIOR to repentance: it seems that God has accepted that person: I would not try to judge him/her. There is "...a sin not unto death....
(2) If the person was offended AFTER salvation, and harbors ill will: then there is a "...sin unto death...": and the church must pray for his/her repentance.

What we must guard against is judging anyone based on just ONE solitary scripture. Remember: "Let every word be established by the mouth of two witnesses or three." These must be NEUTRAL witnesses!

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

A person repents: has agreed that he is a sinner needing salvation; that, essentially he is wrong and God is right;
The person is baptized: the sins are remitted, has, believed and accepted the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus;
Received the Holy Spirit: in other words, has been received into the kingdom of God.

(1) If the person was offended PRIOR to repentance: it seems that God has accepted that person: I would not try to judge him/her. There is "...a sin not unto death....
(2) If the person was offended AFTER salvation, and harbors ill will: then there is a "...sin unto death...": and the church must pray for his/her repentance.

What we must guard against is judging anyone based on just ONE solitary scripture. Remember: "Let every word be established by the mouth of two witnesses or three." These must be NEUTRAL witnesses!

And yet Jesus said if you do not forgive others then the Father will not forgive you. Talk about his blood and crucifixion and sacrifice and your faith in him all you want but if you don't forgive others you will not be forgiven. Jesus said that not me.

You want another witness? In the gospel of Mark, Jesus says the same thing.

[jfrog]

It's amazing to me how many say Jesus was wrong about forgiveness in Matthew 6:14-15