born of water

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Because my brother...the Name of Jesus is SACRED, PRECIOUS, POWERFUL, SALVATION, HEALING, GLORIOUS, DEMON CASTING....etc,

How can ANYONE refer to the Name that is above every name as MAGIC or MYSTICAL and say they are walking in the Spirit? Look at this verse...
Phil 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;


I heard a man once call the Name of Jesus "our little magical formula" in a water baptism debate(he was baptist). This sent cold chills down my spine!!!

You are essentially saying the same thing, yet you are Pentecostal. Sorry bro., calling the name of my savior "magic" or "incantation" or "mystical" or any other derogatory term is not a good position for a Christian to take.

Wrong again, Sean. I'm not calling it "magical or mystical" and continuing to say that I am will not change the facts. Rather I am saying that is you who are treating his name as if though it was magical or mystical because you believe that vocalizing it over someone you are baptizing mysteriously takes away their sins.

And what does Phil. 2:10 have to do with this? That is a prophetic reference to the day Jehovah said every knee would bow and every tongue would bow to him. This will be fulfilled when every knee bows at the judgment to Jesus Christ, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead.

Sean, I really encourage to do a study on the significance of the name of Jesus and it's use in prayer, baptizing, etc.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Wrong again, Sean. I'm not calling it "magical or mystical" and continuing to say that I am will not change the facts. Rather I am saying that is you who are treating his name as if though it was magical or mystical because you believe that vocalizing it over someone you are baptizing mysteriously takes away their sins.
And what does Phil. 2:10 have to do with this? That is a prophetic reference to the day Jehovah said every knee would bow and every tongue would bow to him. This will be fulfilled when every knee bows at the judgment to Jesus Christ, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead.
Sean, I really encourage to do a study on the significance of the name of Jesus and it's use in prayer, baptizing, etc.

The Church is stumbling at the NAME.

Phil 2:10: is not only prophetic. The Father KNEW that the Son would honor his NAME,
therefore the Father honored the Son with his NAME! "And you shall call his
NAME Jesus..."; once more, "I am come in my Father's NAME..." And yes, on the Day of
Judgment, "EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall confess...": sinners and saints.
Some to condemnation; and the elect to everlasting righteousness.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Originalist

Wrong again, Sean. I'm not calling it "magical or mystical" and continuing to say that I am will not change the facts. Rather I am saying that is you who are treating his name as if though it was magical or mystical because you believe that vocalizing it over someone you are baptizing mysteriously takes away their sins.

And what does Phil. 2:10 have to do with this? That is a prophetic reference to the day Jehovah said every knee would bow and every tongue would bow to him. This will be fulfilled when every knee bows at the judgment to Jesus Christ, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead.

Sean, I really encourage to do a study on the significance of the name of Jesus and it's use in prayer, baptizing, etc.

And I encourage you to pray for revelation of the POWER that is in using the Name of Jesus, like these guys had....

Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Jesus is not just a name, but a POWERFUL name. Powerful enough to heal, deliver or REMIT sins!!!

[Sean]

Thats why ALL things must be done in His name...Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

And I encourage you to pray for revelation of the POWER that is in using the Name of Jesus, like these guys had....

Acts 4:7 And when they had set them in the midst, they asked, By what power, or by what name, have ye done this?

8 Then Peter, filled with the Holy Ghost, said unto them, Ye rulers of the people, and elders of Israel,

9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.

11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.



Jesus is not just a name, but a POWERFUL name. Powerful enough to heal, deliver or REMIT sins!!!

Again, you stumble all over it and don't see it. These unregenerate Jews were more educated on this than you, sadly. "Name" signifies authority. Our authority is not an abstract name, but a real person. Just look at what Peter said....

even by him [B]doth this man stand here before you whole

By HIM, not the vocalization or sound of his name. It's the same with the forgiveness of sins in baptism. Jesus forgives the sins, not his name. You are separating the name from the one bearing the name.

As far as a baptismal formula goes, the minister could say, "By the authority of Jesus Christ, the only one who forgives sins, I now baptize you.", and it would be just fine.

I know a minster who never says the word "name" at all when baptizing them, but simply quotes Romans 6:4 as the candidate is being immersed.......

4 Therefore we are buried with him, Jesus Christ, by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Sean

Thats why ALL things must be done in His name...Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Sean, is it necessary to vocalize his name every time you do something in his name in order for him to consider you to have obeyed this verse? If I give a profit a cup of cold water in his name, do I have to say, "In the name of Jesus I give you this cup of cold water" for it to be valid?

[shazeep]

an excellent point!

Originally Posted by thephnxman

But is anyone "qualified to judge whether someone else is lost", OR SAVED, if someone
else outwardly rejects or denies the gospel that saves, or any portion thereof.

to that i would also answer "no" due to the fact that
1) we tend to judge dogmas by their representatives, who may just be door-blockers,
2) this assumes that the Gospel, which is the only one that saves, has been completely understood by those who are familiar with those Words, and is completely codified by those or relative Words--meaning that the popular premise of "i understand it to be like ________, so everyone else better understand it exactly like that, or they are lost"--which is not true, imo, and i have lots of Scripture for these, btw, and i'll just stop at
3)--although i could go on--God judges the heart of a person, and not their verbal adherence to any dogma; and we mostly judge people by their words, and appearances--iow we are not qualified to judge the time of day.

i understand that this comes with the best of intentions. i am aware of the verses--meant for self-application--that often reveal judgemental premises, and i suggest that that is largely their function. There are inevitably more verses that would allow the same accuser to include the same "outward rejecter" rather than exclude them; the choice of premises--and thus salvation--resides with the premise.

i cannot reliably claim that you are 'saved,' simply because your "end" has not come yet; you cannot reliably claim that i am lost simply because i am not comfortable with your framing of the Gospel (for instance). This is the essence of The Vineyard Owner with Two Sons, isn't it?

ok and what's this "you err, not knowing the Scriptures" jazz? are you for real? i mean, you're right, but listen to yourself. do you really even want to be that guy? A gigantic, animated index finger?

[mfblume]

Do you folks feel it is necessary to vocalize Jesus' name when casting out a devil? Ever try it?

[shazeep]

exorcism? arg

Originally Posted by Originalist

Wrong again, Sean. I'm not calling it "magical or mystical" and continuing to say that I am will not change the facts. Rather I am saying that is you who are treating his name as if though it was magical or mystical because you believe that vocalizing it over someone you are baptizing mysteriously takes away their sins.

And what does Phil. 2:10 have to do with this? That is a prophetic reference to the day Jehovah said every knee would bow and every tongue would bow to him. This will be fulfilled when every knee bows at the judgment to Jesus Christ, in whom dwells all the fullness of the Godhead.

Sean, I really encourage to do a study on the significance of the name of Jesus and it's use in prayer, baptizing, etc.

really, i think you guys are pretty much in agreement, and just illuminating two sides of a coin. There are such things as Jesus cults, as weird as that sounds. All verbiage and no action, etc. Known by their fruit.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Do you folks feel it is necessary to vocalize Jesus' name when casting out a devil? Ever try it?

Apples and oranges. We don't cast out people's sins. And vocalizing the name of Jesus to demons is not a given they will leave. Just ask the sons of Sceva in Acts. They had no authority to use the name of Jesus because they did not know Jesus by way of the new birth. Therefore, by your thinking, a sincerely repentant sinner could be baptized with the name of Jesus invoked over them and still remain in their sins if the the one baptizing was not right with God.