Original Sin

[shazeep]

amen to all that, phnxman included. Fast-forward to the 2nd Council of Nicea--the 1st having been dissolved in uproar--when the strong men in the pre-RCC forced the doctrine of Original Sin upon the church, and outlawed owning a Bible shortly thereafter. This sundered the Christian church, the remnant going East and South, and what are now Western Christians, now bereft of Scripture, instigating the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the finger-pointing--and i'm pretty sure the codependence--that endures to this day in our culture, and is practically impossible to find anywhere else; and is also practically impossible to discuss with a death-centered Western Christian, of which i am one.

I'm slowly developing the theory--apparently, as i didn't ask for any of this, it just happened--that Scripture was physically unavailable for those 1000 years or so, and, the doctrine having done its work, Scripture is now--more or less--spiritually unavailable to us, at least without a big change of mind. We say that we are free from sin, but sin, remitting sin, death, who died, whose fault is it, and what "their" shortcomings are--whoever "they" may be, seems to be our central focus.

Witness threads extant here, "versus" threads, or the news, or the fantasy land we raise our kids in, or how we treat our pets--these last two would be compensating methods--add "tipping" to that...it's early, but i could go on for days.

Now of course i speak generally here, several reject or overcome this, a few escape. I haven't yet, i guess

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ah ok well you likely have a personal doctrine; however, there is an official doctrine of OS--namely that we are all sinners because Adam sinned--which the "Developed World" has operated on since the 2nd (spurious) Council of Nicea. Now, whether we are all sinners because Adam sinned, or we are all sinners because we sin after Adam is truly irrelevant to the doctrine, which insists upon the former as a starting point for our religion.

"The question then becomes, when were we made sinners? I believe
we were made (became) sinners when we sinned, because of the Law.

Next question: when were we made righteous? I believe we were made
righteous when we received the free gift because of the sacrifice."

The doctrine of OS warps the former, and ignores the latter; and it shows up in a thousand subtle ways in our culture. As i said earlier, the doctrine might be seen as just a convenient way for pastors to explain something that is demonstrably pointless to inquirers--who after all, have all sinned at that point--but it goes deeper than this. Really, nobody cares, or is edified about, the hair splitting--practically speaking, you are a sinner because you sinned; and you sinned because you have, or had, a sin nature. Sin comes naturally to us, because Adam sinned, and we as humans naturally copy our parents. As i'm sure you know, the phrase "Original Sin" is not in the Bible.

The issue is important when we realize how Paul talked about it in practical terms. After having noted Adam made us sinners in Romans 5, (I agree, it doesn't matter if we were sinners before birth or upon committing sins. Good point!) the real issue is what we see in Romans 7. Even after we are saved, sin resides in our flesh. And it is "activated" whenever we coerce ourselves to do good.

I really believe too many believers treat the New Testament like the Old where will-power was the only recourse for doing good. Whenever ANY law is given where we make ourselves obey rules, sin will rise up and ruin it. Since Paul said the flesh is what is utilized whenever a person tries to serve God through law-keeping, only to see one fail, he discovered sin resides IN the flesh. And he called it a LAW - unlike a moral code sort of law, and more like a principle where we will do evil any time we, in our own power, try to make ourselves do good. Romans 7:21.

Rom 7:21 KJV I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So, the key to victory was to stop relying upon fleshly will power to obey God and stop trying to live a rule-book Christianity. The New Testament did not mean that we make ourselves do good works when it said the ones who love God will keep His commandments. It means the natural result of loving God will be keeping his commandments, because LOVE is the key where things go beyond rule keeping. If someone loves God they just WILL keep His commandments. It's like God foretelling that the presence of His Spirit in us will cause us to walk in his statutes.

Eze 36:27 KJV And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That's a far cry from making oneself keep them.

Romans 6:13 is our part to see God cause us to do well.

And Galatians 5 says that if we walk after the Spirit, that is relying upon Him for empowerment to do good, we will find that the results are lifestyles that the law cannot condemn! In other words, what the Law could not get us to do because it was weak due to our flesh that housed sin, God did in us through Christ and the cross in getting His Spirit in us to cause us to do good. And those who walk after the Spirit in this manner live lives the Law cannot condemn even though the people doing good never restored to the law to learn what they need to make themselves do.

So, original sin in THAT sense informs us that sin still resides in our flesh and will work unless we learn to live a new manner of life by walking after the Spirit instead of twisting Christianity into a rule-book lifestyle that may as well be law-keeping under Moses.

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue is important when we realize how Paul talked about it in practical terms. After having noted Adam made us sinners in Romans 5, (I agree, it doesn't matter if we were sinners before birth or upon committing sins. Good point!) the real issue is what we see in Romans 7. Even after we are saved, sin resides in our flesh. And it is "activated" whenever we coerce ourselves to do good.

I really believe too many believers treat the New Testament like the Old where will-power was the only recourse for doing good. Whenever ANY law is given where we make ourselves obey rules, sin will rise up and ruin it. Since Paul said the flesh is what is utilized whenever a person tries to serve God through law-keeping, only to see one fail, he discovered sin resides IN the flesh. And he called it a LAW - unlike a moral code sort of law, and more like a principle where we will do evil any time we, in our own power, try to make ourselves do good. Romans 7:21.

Rom 7:21 KJV I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

So, the key to victory was to stop relying upon fleshly will power to obey God and stop trying to live a rule-book Christianity. The New Testament did not mean that we make ourselves do good works when it said the ones who love God will keep His commandments. It means the natural result of loving God will be keeping his commandments, because LOVE is the key where things go beyond rule keeping. If someone loves God they just WILL keep His commandments. It's like God foretelling that the presence of His Spirit in us will cause us to walk in his statutes.

Eze 36:27 KJV And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That's a far cry from making oneself keep them.

Romans 6:13 is our part to see God cause us to do well.

And Galatians 5 says that if we walk after the Spirit, that is relying upon Him for empowerment to do good, we will find that the results are lifestyles that the law cannot condemn! In other words, what the Law could not get us to do because it was weak due to our flesh that housed sin, God did in us through Christ and the cross in getting His Spirit in us to cause us to do good. And those who walk after the Spirit in this manner live lives the Law cannot condemn even though the people doing good never restored to the law to learn what they need to make themselves do.

So, original sin in THAT sense informs us that sin still resides in our flesh and will work unless we learn to live a new manner of life by walking after the Spirit instead of twisting Christianity into a rule-book lifestyle that may as well be law-keeping under Moses.

Very good, Beloved.

[shazeep]

amen!

[Godsdrummer]

Mike Amen and Amen

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i find little to argue with there; yet it begs the question why we don't abate physical death by redemption?
ok, i maintain that the spiritually dead are dead to God; yet even those are still obviously capable of thought and speech, and may desire the Spirit. My reasoning here is that God has power over mortal life, but grants choice in the spiritual life, iow physical death is meaningless to God--and possibly our preoccupation with it is an indicator of this--and Spiritual death--which we only see poorly, if at all--is all that matters to God.

Originally Posted by mfblume

Spiritual death is very real. When the bible speaks of dead in trespasses and sins, it refers to spiritual alienation from God. And when we are saved we are baptized into HIS DEATH to resurrect into newness of life right now. We are alive from the dead after having been baptized into His death. And Rom 6:11 says we must reconcile ourselves to be alive unto God, so we can then render ourselves to Him as those alive from the dead.

Mike
I agree that natural death was inherited from Adam, but at what point, and how?
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Do we die natural death because of the fall, or because Adam was created from the dust of the ground?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
In forming man from the dust of the ground man was created mortal from the beginning. By breathing the breath of life into us we also became a living soul. Which makes us both mortal and spiritual, our mortality did not come from the fall, we were already mortal meaning Adam would have died at some point naturally. All mankind are born from the seed of Adam which is mortal. At the fall we became spiritually dead.
This is the primary death we should be concerned about, not so much as our mortal state. Granted the death of Christ gave us the ability to change not only our mortal state but more importantly our spiritual state.
If I understand Shazeep correctly I agree we are too wrapped up with mortally living forever than spiritually.
We have been down this road before, but again, what difference does it make whether this body rises from the grave, or our soul rises from the grave and we are given a new spiritual body. As Peter wrote, "I have a new tabernacle prepared for me when I die".

[KeptByTheWord]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So, original sin in THAT sense informs us that sin still resides in our flesh and will work unless we learn to live a new manner of life by walking after the Spirit instead of twisting Christianity into a rule-book lifestyle that may as well be law-keeping under Moses.

Amen to all of it. Excellent Bro.!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Mike
I agree that natural death was inherited from Adam, but at what point, and how?
1Co 15:21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Do we die natural death because of the fall, or because Adam was created from the dust of the ground?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
In forming man from the dust of the ground man was created mortal from the beginning. By breathing the breath of life into us we also became a living soul. Which makes us both mortal and spiritual, our mortality did not come from the fall, we were already mortal meaning Adam would have died at some point naturally. All mankind are born from the seed of Adam which is mortal. At the fall we became spiritually dead.
This is the primary death we should be concerned about, not so much as our mortal state. Granted the death of Christ gave us the ability to change not only our mortal state but more importantly our spiritual state.
If I understand Shazeep correctly I agree we are too wrapped up with mortally living forever than spiritually.
We have been down this road before, but again, what difference does it make whether this body rises from the grave, or our soul rises from the grave and we are given a new spiritual body. As Peter wrote, "I have a new tabernacle prepared for me when I die".

Brother, I can only get what I propose form what I see in the bible. I dare not propose points of emphasis that I do not get from the bible.

I also realize I may have interpreted the bible incorrectly, since I saw that in a great measure in my futurist days.

But, having said that, I must repeat what I already presented to you. Jesus Christ's physical death was required for sin showing us that physical death is a result of sin and payment for sin involves it. And He had to physically die as part of our means of salvation.

The reason it matters whether or not our body rises from the dead or not is because I can see no other issue being proposed in 1 Cor 15 than a body rising from the dead in resurrection. That's all. I have not ulterior motives in saying bodies rise from the grave. We would not have known about bodies coming from graves if it had not been for the scriptures. So, it's not a matter of being wrapped up in the physical. It's a matter of repeating what we see in the bible.

[thephnxman]

"Let us create man in our image and after our likeness...And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

The question should be, WHY was a physical body prepared for man? He was already created
in God's "...image and likeness." I see two reason for man's body: a) to keep man bound to
the earth from which he was formed to fulfill God's will in him; b) to give him the means
to procreate. In procreation, we can assume God KNEW man would sin and eventually
die. However, death could not take place until man incurred the penalty of the curse of death.
(We must remember that God is omniscient)

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by thephnxman

"Let us create man in our image and after our likeness...And the Lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul."

The question should be, WHY was a physical body prepared for man? He was already created
in God's "...image and likeness." I see two reason for man's body: a) to keep man bound to
the earth from which he was formed to fulfill God's will in him; b) to give him the means
to procreate. In procreation, we can assume God KNEW man would sin and eventually
die. However, death could not take place until man incurred the penalty of the curse of death.
(We must remember that God is omniscient)

Something to consider: If physical bodies are for procreation, then why will we be like the angels who do not procreate after we receive immortal bodies in the resurrection?

I believe our bodies are for this world. And immortal bodies mean we will rule in this world for ever after the resurrection and pass between the heavenly realm and the earthly realm back and forth.

Psa 115:16 KJV The heaven, even the heavens, are the LORD'S: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

We're not meant to dwell in heaven forever.



What would have happened if Adam never sinned? He never would have died and gone to heaven!

Salvation points toward returning to man what Adam lost in the Garden before he sinned. That includes immortal physical bodies with which to rule this world. Heaven is only for disembodied souls and spirits after death until the resurrection. God put Adam to rule in the earth! THAT IS ULTIMATE KINGDOM truth, I believe.