Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

But if the spirit of the Father was in Jesus, and the spirit of Jesus/the spirit of Father is in us, why would we not be all heirs of God? Why would Paul make a difference between heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ?

Formerly we were heirs of Adam receiving the penalty of sin which is death. We are now co heirs with Christ receiving life through him. Also heirs of God receiving all the promises of God.


With God we partake in the kingdom of God both spiritually and literally.

Eph 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; View more

2Ti 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: View more

Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. View more

Rev 22:5 And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light: and they shall reign for ever and ever.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

There is no one having the understanding that Jesus is not all God. The question relates to the term Father. Jesus is not the Father He is the Son.

Jesus Christ is a reflection per se of the glory of God The name Jesus embodies who God was known as prior to the incarnation. Who God manifested Himself as during the incarnation and who we understand God to be in operation after the ascension. Therefore when we as oneness believers say the Name Jesus, that Name contains all aspects of the one God in that great name.

If you were to show a picture of the sitting president to a person and ask who is this they would readily say Barack Obama. We know that is not really the president just an image of who the president is. In that same way God became immanent and became flesh giving us an image of Himself.

Now we who are children of God see the image of God and are changed into that same image. The image we now perceive as the Holy Ghost was demonstrated to the apostles in Jesus's appearance and disappearance from within their midst. This gave them the understanding that they as we don't have to touch him tangibly to know he is right in our midst.

With all due respect,

By these words that you typed it is clear you are a trinitarian.

Any One God believer knows Jesus is the Name of The Everlasting Father.
According to Isaiah 9:6

In order for anything or anyone to be Everlasting they have to have always been and always will be.

The sonship had a beginning at Bethleham.
But He as Spirit has always been God.

Jesus said, " I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. " John 8:24

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Father you are not Apostolic.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Our children may very well see the day when "Oneness" theology becomes indistinguishable from classic trinitarianism.

Though it is in many places to the extent groups don't care either way, there will always be genuine oneness people. It's harder to believe in trinity than oneness.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

This was the problem of the late second and into the third century when they couldn't comprehend the unity as well as the distinctions and changed the monotheistic understanding of God into a trinity. Though they may seem pointless to you they are of vast importance in defense of the faith once delivered. So I would say the oneness and the distinctions are necessary.

What about me saying Jesus is not the Father made you think I didn't think acknowledging the distinctions were important?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

With all due respect,

By these words that you typed it is clear you are a trinitarian.

Any One God believer knows Jesus is the Name of The Everlasting Father.
According to Isaiah 9:6

In order for anything or anyone to be Everlasting they have to have always been and always will be.

The sonship had a beginning at Bethleham.
But He as Spirit has always been God.

Jesus said, " I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. " John 8:24

If you do not believe that Jesus is the Father you are not Apostolic.

Thank you for giving the respect I will do the same. Just because you make that statement, "By these words that you typed it is clear you are a trinitarian.", does not make it true. Have you read my previous posts? Just because of your lack of understanding I will not call you Trinitarian. I will try to enlighten you so that your argument can be properly focused. By trying to prove that Jesus is the Father you are categorically committing a logical fallacy. You contradicted yourself just in the short statement above.

Statement 1
Any One God believer knows Jesus is the Name of The Everlasting Father.
According to Isaiah 9:6

Very strong exertion. When was Isaiah 9.6 written? Both statements could be false when taken to one God believers prior to when this was written. Not even true of many contemporaries of Jesus including the apostles. After their understanding was opened after his resurrection then this statement can be categorically called true. We in time know his name to be Jesus. Did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses know him as Jesus or use the title everlasting Father for God. These were all one God believers. How often does the use of Father occur for God in the old testament.

Exodus 6.2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the LORD:

3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Statement 2
In order for anything or anyone to be Everlasting they have to have always been and always will be.

Your statement for Father is categorically wrong. Now God is immutable and He doesn't change. His essence remains unchangeable. His appellations have according to His self revelations to humanity in time and the unfolding of His eternal plan of salvation. You are applying a Johnny come lately revelation as a priori for all time.

Malachi 3. 6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

Statement 3
The sonship had a beginning at Bethleham.
But He as Spirit has always been God.

Now you have changed the category again from your first statement to a category in time. Then from Father to Spirit. Could you say He as Father has always been God? Or He as God has always been Father?

Isaiah 9.6 says his name shall be called......everlasting Father. A concept of God is being portrayed for our understanding. We understand anthropomorphic terminology. Jesus also spoke in parables to relay heavenly truths using earthly concepts that were common to his hearers.

I am third generation apostolic by the way. I have grown up believing this truth and hearing some preaching and teaching that was far off base as well.

Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by jfrog

All these arguments are really pointless when you realize that Jesus is the Father and he is also not the Father.

Originally Posted by jfrog

What about me saying Jesus is not the Father made you think I didn't think acknowledging the distinctions were important?

The fact that you said All these arguments are really pointless". I just believe that to many are so caught up in trying to prove the oneness that they fear any distinctions will give proof to the Trinitarian. Paul saw the distinctions clearly and gave each their proper place in soteriology.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Our children may very well see the day when "Oneness" theology becomes indistinguishable from classic trinitarianism.

Care to elaborate?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

In John 14:7-10,
Is Jesus talking about Himself, or is He talking about His words and His works?

Is the existence of the Son a Work of the Father?

I'm not trying to be silly or difficult for the sake of being so.

I better focus here at work.

In seeing Jesus the man you would not see the Father. Hearing his words and seeing his works lets you know that supernatural activity was taking place.

Mark 2

1 And again he entered into Capernaum after some days; and it was noised that he was in the house.

2 And straightway many were gathered together, insomuch that there was no room to receive them, no, not so much as about the door: and he preached the word unto them.

3 And they come unto him, bringing one sick of the palsy, which was borne of four.

4 And when they could not come nigh unto him for the press, they uncovered the roof where he was: and when they had broken it up, they let down the bed wherein the sick of the palsy lay.

5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee.

6 But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts,

7 Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?

8 And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts?

9 Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk?

10 But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)

11 I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy bed, and go thy way into thine house.

12 And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

The existence of the Son was a work of God aka The Father before creation being omniscient knowing the end from the beginning

Isaiah 43.10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Colossians 1. 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. note

19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

The fact that you said All these arguments are really pointless". I just believe that to many are so caught up in trying to prove the oneness that they fear any distinctions will give proof to the Trinitarian. Paul saw the distinctions clearly and gave each their proper place in soteriology.

It is pointless. Because if you cannot admit that jesus is the father then you have went to far in the other direction. You are right and they are right. However you take your rightness as excluding their rightness and that's why the discussion is pointless, because you are both right, because jesus is the father and because jesus isn't the father. And yet both sides only admit half the truth and deny the other half.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

Care to elaborate?

Trinitarianism developed over time out of the original apostolic "oneness" teaching. It wasn't as if someone just all of a sudden came up with the trinity, it was developed over time by different people, and those developments eventually culminated in what we know as classic trinitarianism.

History is repeating itself. Among today's "oneness" believers are many who attempt to correct and refine Oneness, but inadvertently they are laying the foundations for repeating the theological mistakes of the past. I see "oneness" believers now saying "Jesus is not the Father" and such. Like I said, if things continue, we may very well see in a generation or two that "oneness" has given birth (again!) to trinitarian error.