Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

I think Elder Epley was very clear, you cannot call any one God, unless they are all God. If Jesus was not all God then he is not God at all.

Whatever title you place, Father, Son, Spirit, Wonderful, counselor, prince of peace, there is only one name.
Jesus name!
He is all in all, it's not complicated.

There is no one having the understanding that Jesus is not all God. The question relates to the term Father. Jesus is not the Father He is the Son.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is a reflection per se of the glory of God The name Jesus embodies who God was known as prior to the incarnation. Who God manifested Himself as during the incarnation and who we understand God to be in operation after the ascension. Therefore when we as oneness believers say the Name Jesus, that Name contains all aspects of the one God in that great name.

If you were to show a picture of the sitting president to a person and ask who is this they would readily say Barack Obama. We know that is not really the president just an image of who the president is. In that same way God became immanent and became flesh giving us an image of Himself.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Now we who are children of God see the image of God and are changed into that same image. The image we now perceive as the Holy Ghost was demonstrated to the apostles in Jesus's appearance and disappearance from within their midst. This gave them the understanding that they as we don't have to touch him tangibly to know he is right in our midst.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. View more

Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. View more

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by Pastor DTSalaz

There is no one having the understanding that Jesus is not all God. The question relates to the term Father. Jesus is not the Father He is the Son.

2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Jesus Christ is a reflection per se of the glory of God The name Jesus embodies who God was known as prior to the incarnation. Who God manifested Himself as during the incarnation and who we understand God to be in operation after the ascension. Therefore when we as oneness believers say the Name Jesus, that Name contains all aspects of the one God in that great name.

If you were to show a picture of the sitting president to a person and ask who is this they would readily say Barack Obama. We know that is not really the president just an image of who the president is. In that same way God became immanent and became flesh giving us an image of Himself.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

Col 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Now we who are children of God see the image of God and are changed into that same image. The image we now perceive as the Holy Ghost was demonstrated to the apostles in Jesus's appearance and disappearance from within their midst. This gave them the understanding that they as we don't have to touch him tangibly to know he is right in our midst.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Mar 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils. View more

Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country. View more

Mar 16:14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

All these arguments are really pointless when you realize that Jesus is the Father and he is also not the Father.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus, the Son of God, isn't the Father. Jesus, the Son of God, is also the Father. How? Because the Father dwells within Him. Meaning, within Christ's very being and person, permeating all that He is. The human essence of Christ and the divine essence of the Father uniquely blended in an inseparable union. The reality of this oneness is one wherein we can say that in the Son, God became a man. And that the Son was a man who was also God.

The man, Jesus Christ, was indeed a man. A human being. Yet He was also God. How? Oneness. He was one with the Father.

Let's review how Jesus Himself describes His Oneness with the Father...

John 10:30
30 I and my Father are one. (KJV)

John 10:38
38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. (KJV)

John 12:45
45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. (KJV)

John 14:7-10
7 If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)

If you walked the earth with Jesus, you'd get to know Him as a man. He'd teach. He'd laugh. He'd eat. He'd use the restroom. He'd sleep. He'd rest. He'd pray and speak of His Heavenly Father. He'd fast. He'd cry. He'd sweat. He'd bleed. However... at times you'd feel something otherworldly emanating from deep within Him. Something emanating from the very core of His being. Something powerful. Something that has authority over all creation. Something that speaks to the winds... bringing them into obedience. Something that raises the dead and heals all manner of sickness. Something indescribable. You'd sense GOD Himself at the core of Christ's own person. You'd realize that this man is... also God.

However, keep in mind...God did not reside in Christ as a vehicle. God resided in and permeated Christ's very being. A Oneness so complete, so majestic, and so divine that in Christ it can be said that God became a man... and that this very same man was also God.

No other religion elevates Christ to such an infinite height of majesty and honor. No other religion expresses Christ's true person to such an infinite degree. Most religions merely make Christ a prophet. No... Christ was not just a prophet. Christ was the human tabernacle of God Himself. To deny this imperils the soul... and reduces Christ to being either a lunatic or a liar.

All authority and power has been delivered to Christ Jesus. He will judge Krishna. He will judge Buddha. He will judge Mohammed. He will judge Nanak. He will judge the followers of every false prophet and madman. He will judge all men in accordance to the Father's will as it relates to the Gospel. Through Him, the Father will judge. Because they are one

2 Corinthians 5:19 (KJV)
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

I've attached an image to help explain.

Maybe I'll learn how to use these tools a little better with time. Some of you are experts able to put several quotes and dissect them. I am just a novice at this.

Very good explanation I might add. I would still like to explore this further.

I would say that Jesus the son of man, a term used various times, is not the Father. He is the human aspect of Jesus humanity. When Peter declared thou art Jesus Son of the living God, this designation equates Him with God. The word Father is how the disciples (later apostles) referred to God and how Jesus Himself referred to God as His Father. So Jesus referred to Him as a different and distinct entity yet equated Himself with this entity by saying I [B][U]and[B][U] my Father are one.

So the phrase Jesus is also the Father can be said to be true inasmuch as Jesus referred to the divinity as did those around him as Father. The way that God and Jesus are unique to all of human existence is that Jesus is the only begotten of the Father. Yet in this condescension of God Jesus who being in the form of God thought it not robbery to be made equal to God.

Philippians 2. 5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

All that God is, is in the man Christ Jesus. Jesus is not a thief in taking upon himself something that does not belong to Him. We have the Spirit of God who we know is a separate entity than ourselves but resides within us. Jesus on the other hand made himself equal with God on various occasions. Though we are sons of God we are never The Son of God.

34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

I would still be very careful not to say that God became a man but rather the first manifestation of God as the Word became flesh. The Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us. The reason being that God does not change or morph. He is simply one. Nothing can ever be added or taken away from his essence. For this reason we say God was in Christ. Yet Jesus Himself could equate Himself with God saying he who has seen me has seen the Father.

When we look at Jesus in the flesh we see the man. Yet he is a man unlike any other for the works that he does can only be done by God. Can we call this an inseparable union? I would rather call this a unique union of God and man in a majestic kingly fashion, the oneness of God with frail humanity.

Philippians 2.7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Aquila

If I poured a half glass of wine into a half glass of water... are the contents of the second glass, wine or water???

If Almighty God pours Himself into the very being of His human Son... is His Son now man or God???

Many of our illustrations are very difficult to describe and define God who is not a composite being. We cannot compartmentalize God into sections. The sun, the Ray, the light, the beam, the heat are all distinctions of an element of billions of atoms which are all separate yet God is simply one. An egg with shell, egg white and yolk all describe an egg that is a composite thing. So too with water and wine.

We have the Spirit of God yet are not God. Jesus is uniquely the only begotten full of grace and truth.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Jesus HAD the Holy Ghost is different from Jesus IS the Holy Ghost.


Which one is it?

Jesus the man had to be fully human in order to be the redeemer. Having body soul and spirit which was uniquely created and united with God. He had to have the potential to sin and disobey for him to truly sympathize with mankind. His spirit had to commune with God's Spirit to bring his human will into subjection to God's will as every human being does. For this reason Jesus can be said to be full of the Holy Ghost at the beginning of his earthly ministry as he now needed to subject his flesh to the direction of the Spirit. Prior to that though united with the Spirit of God he grew as any normal child yet never sinning knowing his purpose. After being baptized, fasting and prayer had filled him as well as when we draw closer to God after consecration and sanctification. Though it is said he was full of the Holy Ghost He is still one and the same as the Holy Spirit.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by jfrog

All these arguments are really pointless when you realize that Jesus is the Father and he is also not the Father.

This was the problem of the late second and into the third century when they couldn't comprehend the unity as well as the distinctions and changed the monotheistic understanding of God into a trinity. Though they may seem pointless to you they are of vast importance in defense of the faith once delivered. So I would say the oneness and the distinctions are necessary.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Sean

This is when the Holy Ghost likely left him....

Psalm 22
22 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

Matt 27:46
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?



He was still alive during this, and gave up his human spirit much later.

I would venture to say He had the feeling of our infirmity of being God forsaken because of the sin that separates man from God. At this point he was suffering from being the propitiation or satisfaction of judgment for sin as well as the pain in his body. Yet he himself said that he will never leave you or forsake you speaking as God. He did give up the ghost or human spirit as the body exhaled it's last breath. This is the point when our human will can no longer be exercised free will ends. The soul is still alive and can still see, hear, feel as this is our eternal spiritual being. What is do in the lifetime of our fleshly body will determine our eternal destiny. Whether our spiritual man was born again and we walked in the spirit or walked according to the lusts of the flesh. This is why Jesus could proclaim it is finished. He walked according to the spirit and fulfilled the work that was given to him.

Just as after the creation He (God) rested from his works, Jesus sat down at the right hand of God. His work was done. We only see him standing in intercession but never doing any more works for salvation.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Jesus is stating that, if He is good, as the one speaking to Him attested that He was, He must be understood to be God. It's like if the man said, "Divine teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?", and Jesus said, "Why do you call me divine? There is none divine but one, that is, God." In other words, Jesus is saying, "If I'm what you're saying I am, you must know who I am."

I agree with you Jesus is having him see beyond his human existence and equating himself with the divine nature.

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

Well, I believe in ONENESS per se... but there are some things that aren't completely clear to me.

For example.... how do you explain this verse? (there obviously is shown to be a difference between God, and Jesus).

Romans 8:17 "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may also be glorified together."

So, how is it that we are heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Jesus? This would suggest a distinct difference between God and Jesus.

We must be very careful when we depict the humanity of Jesus, because many people take this to mean that we are co-equal with Jesus, and I think this is where the Mormons took their spin-off. They believe they can become equals with Jesus, and can become like him, like gods themselves.

Just one of the questions about the "oneness" that I've not understood, although I do believe that there is only one God and that in Jesus was manifested the spirit of the Father. It is just that sometimes the descriptions written by Paul about the godhead conjure up other things.

Paul was fully aware of the distinctions and the purpose for each distinction. The understanding of Jesus in his humanity being the firstfruits of the saints. We are heirs as children of God. Co-heirs with Christ for He came to break the curse brought on by Adam and give us our rightful place with God. The Spirit couldn't do this only a man, the man Christ Jesus.

Romans 8.16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

John 1. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: note

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1 Corinthians 15. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Even here Paul gives us the role each aspect of God has in redemption and salvation. It is through the love of God John 3.16 that we receive the giving unmerited grace of Jesus and we are now be held together by the communion of the Holy Spirit. Each has a separate function.

14 The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen.

[Esaias]

Our children may very well see the day when "Oneness" theology becomes indistinguishable from classic trinitarianism.