Why I Am A Futurist

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Brother Blume, can you please demonstrate that Adam and Eve had immortality independently of tree of life?

Isn't this enough?

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

If they die if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then doesn't it follow that if they never eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they will never die regardless if they eat or don't eat of the tree of life.?

[Sean]

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Originally Posted by mizpeh

Isn't this enough?

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

If they die if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then doesn't it follow that if they never eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they will never die regardless if they eat or don't eat of the tree of life.?

If I may...


It does not say specifically that they were forced to eat of the Tree of Life before the fall, but that it was fine to eat of ANY tree(including the Tree of Life), except 1 tree(knowledge of good and evil).

Now after the fall, the ONLY tree that was forbidden to eat became the Tree of Life(the reverse)....Why?....

22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:.......

So man could not have access to immortality!

So, if man eats of the bad tree and "dies" on day 1, then it only stands to reason that man would desperately try to get to the good tree that was "legal" to eat before he fell into sin. Man was already FAMILIAR with the properties of the good tree, and that is why God surrounded it with armed angels.

To think that man did not partake of, or was not allowed to partake of the Tree of Life before the fall, is to assume that God had an inaccessible, "useless teaser tree" in the garden just to tease mankind when he finally fell.(that's mental torture to His creation).



Thats like dangling a cancer cure in front of a dying cancer patient and saying....."too bad, you never had access to it anyway"

The reality is Adam and Eve voluntarily gave back the cure to God, then lost access to what they already had.

They traded a good tree for a bad tree when they chose to eat the bad tree. God simply forbid them to eat the good tree anymore because they now had "THE KNOWLEDGE GOOD AND EVIL"

Simply stated, they could not serve God and sin, and neither can we!!!

[Esaias]

If they were created immortal, how could they afterwards die? Immortal means "not able to die".

Does not the NT teach the divine pattern is mortal first, immortal second? Natural first, Spiritual second? Earthly first, heavenly second? By saying they were immortal to begin with, does that not violate the pattern?

Is not the tree of life that which cnfers immortality? Hence they were barred from it, because without it they would not live forever?

[Esaias]

Interesting argument showing that the scripture teaches Adam was made mortal, not immortal, that no change in the constitution of his body took place at the Fall.

https://pjamesbeardsley.wordpress.co...y-immortal-no/

[Esaias]

Also, God told Adam the plants were to be his food. Why would God provide plants for his food if he was immortal? Food is to nourish the body to keep it from dying. This alone seems to refute the idea Adam was created immortal.

[Sean]

Good point, the Bible says they were created, but it does not say created immortal.
It shows the first and only sign of immortality connected to this....

Gen 3:22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


The Tree of Life!

[Sean]

Esaias, I think you just BLEW UP an age old presupposition here!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Isn't this enough?

16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You may freely eat of every tree of the garden; 17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die.”

If they die if they eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil then doesn't it follow that if they never eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that they will never die regardless if they eat or don't eat of the tree of life.?

Right. Good one!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Not sure I follow you. Are you saying they were created immortal, sinned and lost it, and the tree of life was for restorative purposes?

If they had not sinned, they would have lived forever WITHOUT eating of the tree of life?

I'm not sure I see that from the text in Romans as being a necessary inference. Could it not mean death came by sin because they were barred from the tree of life as punishment for sin?

I see it as this... sin brought death. And as Mizpeh said, dying would only occur if they ate of the forbidden fruit, whether they ate other fruit or not.

The fruit of life corresponds similarly to the lamb slain from the foundation in that it had the remedy of sin and death, which was not required before sin.

Death came by sin. Plain and simple. If physical death was not included, then why is Christ's physical death payment for sin, seeing the soul that sinneth shall surely die?

[thephnxman]

Originally Posted by shazeep

well, that was for Sean, who reads literally...but since you answered, i will ask what you think the first "dying" means, in "dying, you will die."

You REALLY don't undertstand?

It means they began to die until they were dead
Please note that God did NOT say: [U][IF you eat, you will die];[U] rather, "...on
the day that you eat thereof...". God knew they would eat of the forbidden fruit.