Why was Lucifer in heaven?

[Praxeas]

Heaven isn't perfection. Heaven is God's home.

Lucifer was there because God allowed him to be

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Ron

What is Babylon?

Is that a joke?

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Is that a joke?

A Rhetorical question.

[Ron]

Originally Posted by Bowas

I'm not choosing one side or the other, but the burden of proof lies not with the one that questions the claim, but rather the burden of proof lies with the person making the claim.

I do not have no burden of proof either way, the Bible does not delve into too much about the Angelic hosts.
On what I posted it is not a Salvation issue to me, Acts 2:38 is, I asked Bro Bennicasa if he has something better, I am open!

I do not debate just for the sake of debating, not healthy, nor does it edify!
Bro Bennicasa knows what I believe & he knows, or should know that I hold no ill will towards him, and if he has something else to add--I am all ears.

Bowas, forgive me if I am wrong here, but methinks you take this forum a little too seriously then you should!
I have nothing to prove, those who believe me, will do so, those who do not, will do so as well.
I will sleep well tonight.

I am off to take the kids to youth night & then my wife & I will be taking a new saint out for coffee & fellowship at Tim Horton's!
Glory to God!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Ron

I do not have no burden of proof either way, the Bible does not delve into too much about the Angelic hosts.
On what I posted it is not a Salvation issue to me, Acts 2:38 is, I asked Bro Bennicasa if he has something better, I am open!

I do not debate just for the sake of debating, not healthy, nor does it edify!
Bro Bennicasa knows what I believe & he knows, or should know that I hold no ill will towards him, and if he has something else to add--I am all ears.

Bowas, forgive me if I am wrong here, but methinks you take this forum a little too seriously then you should!
I have nothing to prove, those who believe me, will do so, those who do not, will do so as well.
I will sleep well tonight.

I am off to take the kids to youth night & then my wife & I will be taking a new saint out for coffee & fellowship at Tim Horton's!
Glory to God!

I'm just asking how lucifer means angel? Where is the word lucifer used for an angel of the highest order? How is the word lucifer found among a three angel line up? Consisting of Michael, Gabriel, & an angel NAMED lucifer? Also does anyone know where the "word" lucifer is found in any other place in the Bible? I love you Ron, and I'm just asking you a question for the statements you made in a post. Bowas is merely stating that since you had all that other information you would also know the origins. The two places in Ezekiel and Isaiah are taught as if it were speaking of the fall of Satan, but it isn't specifically pointing that out other than Ezekiel brings up a covering cherub actually means a place Kerub Ezra 2:59, Neh. 7:61, which Ezekiel is calling the King of Tyre the guardian of Kerub, not covering Cherubim, like the six winged angels in the beginning of Ezekiel. Now, this is debatable, but in context we see that in Ezekiel 28:5 the King of Tyre made himself wealthy through commerce, and it was this commerce which causes him to be seated in the midst of the seas Ezekiel 28:2. This is a clear indicator of how powerful he was in commerce. He made himself wealthy. Ezekiel 28:7 God through the prophet warns the King of Tyre that he will bring nations against him, this isn't speaking of the fall of an angel from heaven. The King of Tyre is being foretold his death by approaching armies slain in the middle of his place of commerce Ezekiel 28:8. The prophet now tells the king that even when he is being assassinated he will tell his assassins that he is GOD, yet dying proving he is just a man Ezekiel 28:9-10. Ezekiel 28:11-15 describes the King of Tyre as being the the most wealthiest, and knowledgeable (in commerce of trade) then any other king. Yet in Ezekiel 28:16 we find that the king falls because his wealth corrupted him, and therefore God rejects him. Ezekiel 28:17-18 explains that because of his commerce, trafficking, wealth through trade he blows off God, and therefore he is made an example to other KINGS. Ezekiel 28:19 finishes it all off by saying how God destroys the king before all people rubbed out for all ages. Again, specifically speaking of a king, not an angel. Still even if we say the word cherub means a six winged four faced creature, the king is being called the guardian cherub of Eden. That's not the devil folks that's the one with the flaming sword.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I'm just asking how lucifer means angel? Where is the word lucifer used for an angel of the highest order? How is the word lucifer found among a three angel line up? Consisting of Michael, Gabriel, & an angel NAMED lucifer? Also does anyone know where the "word" lucifer is found in any other place in the Bible? I love you Ron, and I'm just asking you a question for the statements you made in a post. Bowas is merely stating that since you had all that other information you would also know the origins. The two places in Ezekiel and Isaiah are taught as if it were speaking of the fall of Satan, but it isn't specifically pointing that out other than Ezekiel brings up a covering cherub actually means a place Kerub Ezra 2:59, Neh. 7:61, which Ezekiel is calling the King of Tyre the guardian of Kerub, not covering Cherubim, like the six winged angels in the beginning of Ezekiel. Now, this is debatable, but in context we see that in Ezekiel 28:5 the King of Tyre made himself wealthy through commerce, and it was this commerce which causes him to be seated in the midst of the seas Ezekiel 28:2. This is a clear indicator of how powerful he was in commerce. He made himself wealthy. Ezekiel 28:7 God through the prophet warns the King of Tyre that he will bring nations against him, this isn't speaking of the fall of an angel from heaven. The King of Tyre is being foretold his death by approaching armies slain in the middle of his place of commerce Ezekiel 28:8. The prophet now tells the king that even when he is being assassinated he will tell his assassins that he is GOD, yet dying proving he is just a man Ezekiel 28:9-10. Ezekiel 28:11-15 describes the King of Tyre as being the the most wealthiest, and knowledgeable (in commerce of trade) then any other king. Yet in Ezekiel 28:16 we find that the king falls because his wealth corrupted him, and therefore God rejects him. Ezekiel 28:17-18 explains that because of his commerce, trafficking, wealth through trade he blows off God, and therefore he is made an example to other KINGS. Ezekiel 28:19 finishes it all off by saying how God destroys the king before all people rubbed out for all ages. Again, specifically speaking of a king, not an angel. Still even if we say the word cherub means a six winged four faced creature, the king is being called the guardian cherub of Eden. That's not the devil folks that's the one with the flaming sword.

I believe I have been taught that this passage in Luke is referring to the Ezekiel account regarding Lucifer.

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I never really looked at that closely until today, and I thought this was interesting what Barnes wrote, which means you need to read the previous verse:

Luke 10:17 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I beheld Satan ... - “Satan” here denotes evidently the prince of the devils who had been cast out by the seventy disciples, for the discourse was respecting their power over evil spirits. “Lightning” is an image of “rapidity” or “quickness.” I saw Satan fall “quickly” or rapidly - as quick as lightning. The phrase “from heaven” is to be referred to the lightning, and does not mean that he saw “Satan” fall “from heaven,” but that he fell as quick as lightning from heaven or from the clouds. The whole expression then may mean, “I saw at your command devils immediately depart, as quick as the flash of lightning. I gave you this power - I saw it put forth - and I give also now, in addition to this, the power to tread on serpents,” etc. - Barnes

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe I have been taught that this passage in Luke is referring to the Ezekiel account regarding Lucifer.

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I never really looked at that closely until today, and I thought this was interesting what Barnes wrote, which means you need to read the previous verse:

Luke 10:17 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I totally understand I was told the same thing. Yet, the events actually have nothing to do with each other. Look at the context of what is going on that Jesus makes His statement.

Jesus is replying to the statement the 70 make in Luke 10:17. The 70 return proclaiming there authority (the Greek word is used in a military sense) over demons. Jesus' comment is a reply to what they were doing. Jesus then goes on to say that He saw Satan fall from heaven as lighting a position of spiritual authority. The scripture does say that we are seated with Christ in heavenly places, also heavenly realms are the places where all power lays Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 2:6, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 6:12. Therefore Jesus replies to the 70 that He has seen the adversary fall from this place of authority and power. Remember when Jesus and Satan have their discussion in Luke 4:6 Satan tells Jesus that Satan would give the glory of all the kingdoms and authority over those kingdoms, because they were Satan's to give to anyone he wanted to give them. Satan had the authority, but Jesus wasn't going to compromise and bow to Satan to obtain the authority. Jesus tells His disciples that you must first bind the strong man Matthew 12:29, and Mark 3:27. Therefore Satan would be bound, and his authority taken from him.

Jesus replies to His 70 disciples concerning Satan falling as lighting from heaven, and goes right into His comment found in Luke 10:19 stating that the power of authority had been given to them, therefore they rule and command.

The king of Babylon is called the first light which brings the dawn, he was the head of gold Daniel 2:38. The king of Babylon's golden city cease Isaiah 14:4. The king of Babylon was seen as a great tree which reached to heaven so high all the earth could view the greatness Daniel 4:11. Yet, what are we seeing that is the same is where it speaks of rulership authority, not a fall of a arch demon, an angel gone bad and shaking his fist at God because he wouldn't bow to God's creation...man.

The dragon with his tail drag a third of the angels Revelation 12:4, a war is in heaven Revelation 12:7, yet we are told these aren't literal, but are symbolic a σημεῖον translated in English as sign or in the KJV as wonder. Again, all this is speaking of a transference of authority. Satan and his corrupt ministers as 2 Corinthians 11:14-15, and the defender of Israel with his true ministers Daniel 12:1, with his righteous ministers. While the scriptures do speak of falls from authority, they aren't speaking about an angel who fell from grace IMHO.

[Lafon]

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

I believe I have been taught that this passage in Luke is referring to the Ezekiel account regarding Lucifer.

Luke 10:18 "And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I never really looked at that closely until today, and I thought this was interesting what Barnes wrote, which means you need to read the previous verse:

Luke 10:17 "And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."

I think Barnes is guilty of the same error many make when trying to interpret the "sayings" of our Lord, and that is they fail to first make the critical distinction of determining who is speaking; the Spirit or the "man" Christ Jesus.

Clearly, in this incident it had to be the Spirit, who is eternal and not restrained by the limitations of time that is speaking through the Son, for He is able to "...calleth those things which be not as though they were" (Romans 4:17).

We read in Revelation 12:7-12 of a future "war in heaven," at which time that "great dragon was cast out" (who is Satan), and seeing that Christ Jesus, the man, had not yet been "glorified" when He uttered the words of Luke 10:18, then He could NOT have been speaking of an event which He had witnessed, for it had NOT yet taken place, and as a "man" Christ Jesus, at the time He uttered this statement, was still a mortal human being with the same restrictions as you and I.

Barnes' commentary sounds plausible, however, in my opinion it is "carnal-minded speculation."

[Praxeas]

Lucifer wasn't a name. It's a latin word for "bright Star"

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Lucifer wasn't a name. It's a latin word for "bright Star"