Shouting at NAYC

[Nitehawk013]

I miss the good ol' days when the really good stuff Stoneking said so far outnumbered the dumb stuff that only people with a hardcore anti-Stoneking vendetta like DAII would make a big deal about it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Nitehawk013

I miss the good ol' days when the really good stuff Stoneking said so far outnumbered the dumb stuff that only people with a hardcore anti-Stoneking vendetta like DAII would make a big deal about it.

People like Brother Stoneking, and that's the way it is. No matter what kind of unprovable things he might say, people enjoy his ministry.

[votivesoul]

I read the entire quote in context, as provided by n_david, and this is what I see:

There is unlimited potential in this auditorium.

A common thing to say at rallies and conventions, especially among the youth, who are constantly struggling with identity and faith. It sounds spiritual, but it doesn't really mean anything important. It gets the emotional juices going, i.e. it's a set-up for the show-stopping part of the act to come.

God spoke to me just about 30 minutes ago and told me that if you would do a certain thing, that He would totally deliver you from all fear and inhibitions.

I am always cautious to debate whether or not God has spoken to someone, because I would hate to be a false witness against God. So I will give it a maybe, but something about the above doesn't ring true, which is this:

The "certain thing" God allegedly wanted them to do was shout, as the rest of the sermon indicates. The promise was that if they shouted, God would deliver them of "all fear and inhibition".

The only place where we are promised deliverance from fear is in 1 John 4:18. It reads that perfect love casts out fear, as I'm sure we all know. I do not see how a few minutes of shouting immediately and irrevocably perfected everyone's love and cast out their fear. The perfection of love is done by keeping God's Word (1 John 2:5). Yes, shouting unto God is a part of His Word, and keeping It can make the difference in certain areas of our walk with Him. But shouting as an act of praise doesn't mean we are keeping His Word in any other place in our lives, and so, shouting is insufficient to, and cannot enable us to, keep God's Word in total---meaning, a session of praise shouting isn't going to perfect our love, meaning, fear and inhibition isn't going to be cast out the way the Lord intends.

A shout may steel nerves, and be a bracer against pain, discomfort, or injury; it may be a release valve for spleen or stress, and in this way, may function as a war cry. Well and good, but don't make it automatically more spiritual than that. A bunch of people shouting because it's expected of them and has been indirectly demanded of them, doesn't make the shout a move of God. Imagine if after he told them to shout, no one did? Or only some did? The next thing said would have been a rebuke for denying the will of God and not getting with it.

Just because a bunch of people can respond on cue, doesn't mean anything. How spiritually immature and easily influenced are young people? Children's crusades, anyone (http://www.britannica.com/event/Childrens-Crusade)? Especially when the most famous preacher in the entire movement since Paul is the one giving the order?

I'm not sure I understand this, but in the Old Testament, people would shout at the command of God and walls would come down, enemies would be discomfitted, battles would become won.

"At the command of God..." indicating that what Brother Stoneking was about to say was the "command of God", at least according to him. See how easy it is to equate the preacher with the Lord? Maybe God really did speak to him and maybe He really did want all the people there to shout???

But as pointed out above, it doesn't quite gel with the Scriptures the way it should have if God had actually spoken.

And I thought to myself, what is it about shouting that would cause such a tremendous manifestation of power. With a little study, I found out that there is something about the human voice, that when it shouts, it shreds the air.

He's been preaching this for at least a half decade, as I heard him say the exact same thing at Mid-Winter Camp, at Parkway Apostolic Church, in Oak Creek, WI, several years ago. He also led the people there to shout.

So to pass this off as a "fresh word from the Lord" isn't honest. This appears to have been done deliberately.

Which is beside the point, since the human voice, no matter the decibel level, cannot "shred" air molecules. Air molecules are a collection of gases, chiefly nitrogen and then oxygen, (and then, other gases in extra-minute portions, for example argon). To "shred" the molecular bonds of these gases would make the air in the immediate vicinity of the shouter immediately un-breathable.

Yes, air molecules can be separated, but not by soundwaves, rather by massive shifts in temperature (See: http://www.messergroup.com/de/Info_D...or-Life_en.pdf).

And the human voice, no matter how hard one tries, can never generate sufficient temperature variations to cause molecular instability in air molecules (See: http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/poster-coffee.cfm)

You can google all day long the phrase "the human voice shreds air molecules" and you'll never find anything remotely close to whatever he claims to have found out.

Which is again beside the point, because even if somehow, the human voice could "shred" air molecules, it would

1.) Have to get to such a high decibel that everyone within close proximity, including the shouter, would immediately be knocked out if not actually killed. Sound pain threshold is around 150 decibels, meaning, when a noise of any kind gets to that level, people begin to experience pain, even to the bursting of ear drums. And such decibel levels are usually only found next to an explosion, or a jet taking off (See: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...sound-kill-you).

and/or

2.) still not have any effect upon a spiritual being like Satan or a devil, in that the effect is merely physical. The only thing that would get shredded would be the shouter and the people immediately adjacent.

The devil is the prince and power of the air. So I understand, then, that if the people of God will shout....(inaudible)"

Now that the set-up has been properly executed, and the whole convention has been put on notice of the awesome thing God was going to do if they just shouted really loud, the pay-off can be brought to bear on the gullible, i.e. the young and those not educated enough in physics to know that what he just said is a scientific impossibility.

It doesn't matter if he qualified it with "So I understand...". This doesn't get him off the hook FOR BEING FLAT OUT WRONG AND MISLEADING.

This is not about getting my hate on for Lee Stoneking. This is about realizing that we the people of God, as long as we keep buying this type of manipulative nonsense are never going to see the real thing from God. We're all too happy to just keep chopping away at all the substitutional, artificial preacher fodder. So is it any wonder that the "greater works than these" never really manifest the way we all want them to, in the movement?

It's happening. It's happening. The devil's kingdom is being shredded...

He just equated the shredding of air molecules (a literal, scientific impossibility) with the shredding of the devil's kingdom, thus leading them all to believe that they were actually shredding actual air molecules in their shout against the devil. He is telling them that the decibel level of their voice in the "shout" is doing something supernatural, as if, as Pressing_On pointed out, it was the level of their voices, and not the work of the Almighty, that was doing the job.

And pray, I thought the purpose of the shout was to deliver them from all fear and inhibitions? Why is it now an assault on the devil? Destroying the works of the devil is no guarantee against fearfulness. The flesh is fully capable of generating its own fear.

...and the demonstration of ...(inaudible)... power is upon you. You can cause the lame to walk. You can cause the blind to see. You cause the deaf to hear. You can raise the dead. Because it is written, 'These signs shall follow them that believe. In my Name, in my Name, they shall cast out devils, they shall speak with new tongues. They, believers, shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.' They shall recover. They shall recover. It's on you. It's on you. It's on you. If you will clap your hands and shout with your voice, God will deliver you from all fear. 'I deliver you from all fear,' saith the Lord. 'I deliver you from all inhibitions,' said the Lord. That's it! Clap your hands, all ye people, and shout unto the Lord with a voice of triumph!"

Fantastic, if actually so. But 20,000 people a few weeks back all received the power to do signs and wonders like an apostle and no testimonies anywhere since then in the movement indicating that anyone present at NAYC caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear, or the dead to be raised after they left? Is this a prophecy yet to be fulfilled? A promise from God that He is waiting to do? Have the 20,000 all failed in their newly received commission to, among other things, raise the dead? Or was it all a bunch of sincerely intended, but nonetheless emotional blather?

Praise God for all that He did do among those who attended. I went once and God blessed me in a way that I've never experienced, not before or since. I'm not ranting against NAYC. Nor am I against shouting, as it's a clear Biblical principle of prayer, intercession, and worship.

The issue is the deception and manipulation. Signs and wonders are primarily indicators of apostleship. Do not forget that Jesus was speaking to His Twelve first and foremost. How many people I have met over the years utterly discouraged and fretful that no matter how faithful they are, no matter how fervently they pray, no matter how much they give and sacrifice for God, they never see signs and wonders like they assume are promised to them.

In Acts, you never see all believers through the Roman empire performing the signs and wonders. You see a select group of men, apostles all, entrusted with that kind of power/authority. Maybe we've missed that?

I leave you with the following, if anyone cares to read:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...e-substitutes/

I don't hate Lee Stoneking. In fact I have defended him (remember the UN sermon post?). In a way, he played an important part in my conversion to Christianity (and I would be happy to share it with anyone who wants to know). It's not the man, but the message, that I take issue with. He, like anyone of us can, has made a mistake in this area. We all need to be able to forgive that. But the real issue is that, since he's so famous, so otherwise anointed, has seen the glory of God and has paid the price to do so, over the decades of an otherwise amazing, and amazingly power ministry, that no one in a position to do so, will speak up and say anything about these little flirtings with disaster.

[houston]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

People like Brother Stoneking, and that's the way it is. No matter what kind of unprovable things he might say, people enjoy his ministry.

No matter what LIES he spreads.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by houston

No matter what LIES he spreads.

That's why you have more than one man in the picture. There are people like you, and I who will point these things out to the others. While I can get a little sarcastic while I'm doing it, and don't hate Brother Stoneking, but understand that somethings he says are unverified.

Concerning LIES as far as doctrine, needs to be placed on top of the doctrines of forgiveness, mercy, and love. You can have Jesus name baptism, One God, holiness, tongues, tithes, offerings, worship, and eschatology totally perfect, but if you don't forgive, you are as lost as the devil.

If you don't love (I mean real love) no sloppy sticky dripping oozing mess, you are lost. When n david posted that people "hate" Brother Stoneking, that didn't sound too good. Because if we hate anyone then being incorrect on other doctrines are the least of our problems. it is impossible to have salvation if you hate people. Now, Luke 14:26 has Jesus saying unless you hate your family and even your own life you cannot follow Him. This didn't mean to walk around loathing yourself. It just meant to follow Jesus, His teachings, and no one else, including your own will. That would include the luxury of hating all who offend you, who don't believe the same as you, or those who tell stories about NASA scientists seeing the New Jerusalem approaching earth from outer space. We are admonished to PROVE all things, hold fast to that which is good. Not just believe everything that flies over a pulpit. Teach that to everyone, and then you won't be worried about a preacher telling a congregation that the tower of Babel was really a rocket ship.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Ron

Hi PO, like most things in life I am a day late. God is in the shout & many times he is not, sometimes God is in the quiet move of God & many times it is just shallow dead Church!
I love emotion, God's attributes of Love & his Peace touch me in my emotions, but I told my Pastor recently that I fear for this upcoming generation of, "entertain me, "excite me," "keep me occupied" & have very "
shallow roots!"
These people, when the hard times of trial & testing come, & they will come, these people who are just in the emotional phase will be shaken in their faith.
Many times, we as a Church body are not always quick to share our wisdom & experience with new converts especially young people, we may have better retention of our new converts!
Your husband has good wisdom!

Don't get me going on fog machines, spot lights & disco balls!

I agree, as previously posted, that God is in the shout and in the silence. There needs to be balance. Focus on the shout alone is unhealthy. That said, I disagree that the 5-minutes of a shout at NAYC will cause shallow roots, or youth to wilt at the slightest bit of test or trial. From all accounts, save one, God moved in a mighty way and it had a positive effect on the youth gathered there.

I also disagree with your worry about the future generation. Since there's no clear-cut timeframe for a generation (some say 10, 20, even 70 years), I'll say ages 30 and under. The majority in that age group whom I've known, met, taught and spoken with are very hungry for more than just "entertain me," or "excite me." J. Lee Grady wrote of how this age group is desiring for more of the Holy Ghost. There is a desire for a real move of God. They see through the fog and lighting. They're not satisfied with the pablum being offered at most churches today. The Last Reformation Movement in Denmark is driven by a lot of this 30 and under group, who have left church because it is no longer like the church of the book of the Acts of the Apostles.

I have great faith in the 30 and unders.

[n david]

Originally Posted by CC1

C'mon, you know good and well that the complaint is that he will take some basic scientific principle like this and extrapolate it out into crazy conlusions. Of course sound affects the molecules in the air but absolutey nowhere in the bible does it say that this has anything to do with anything spiritual. All power in spiritual warfare comes from God and not screaming.

Again, it was simply an example used. Keep drinking the haterade. I dare say if someone else made the statement, it wouldn't be a topic on AFF, especially one to which you replied.

[n david]

I'm not going to lie, this post really angered me. With exception of a couple posts by the muslim and other reprobates, I don't believe I've read a post which has made me so angry. I've written several drafts and edited some of my anger out of my response, but some is still in it. Deal with it.

This is one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever read on AFF.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I read the entire quote in context, as provided by n_david, and this is what I see:

Who doesn't love play by play commentary! Can't wait to read your analysis of each word/line Stoneking said! *excited!*

Originally Posted by votivesoul

A common thing to say at rallies and conventions, especially among the youth, who are constantly struggling with identity and faith. It sounds spiritual, but it doesn't really mean anything important. It gets the emotional juices going, i.e. it's a set-up for the show-stopping part of the act to come.

Wait, so this all was just an act?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I am always cautious to debate whether or not God has spoken to someone, because I would hate to be a false witness against God. So I will give it a maybe, but something about the above doesn't ring true, which is this:

I'm so glad you're offering your play by play of the hidden agenda and intentions of Stoneking. Here I thought Stoneking was telling the truth about what he believed God told him. SO GLAD you cleared this up and used your deductive reasoning to show Stoneking is not just a fake and fraud participating in a "show-stopping act," but that he's also a liar who claims God told him something which God really didn't tell him.

Did God tell you this? Did He reveal this deception to you? Or are you Omniscient?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The only place where we are promised deliverance from fear is in 1 John 4:18. It reads that perfect love casts out fear, as I'm sure we all know. I do not see how a few minutes of shouting immediately and irrevocably perfected everyone's love and cast out their fear. The perfection of love is done by keeping God's Word (1 John 2:5). Yes, shouting unto God is a part of His Word, and keeping It can make the difference in certain areas of our walk with Him. But shouting as an act of praise doesn't mean we are keeping His Word in any other place in our lives, and so, shouting is insufficient to, and cannot enable us to, keep God's Word in total---meaning, a session of praise shouting isn't going to perfect our love, meaning, fear and inhibition isn't going to be cast out the way the Lord intends.

Again, I'm so happy you took the time to refute Stoneking's lies! Of course, there's my own personal experience which doesn't match up with your claims here...

Originally Posted by votivesoul

A shout may steel nerves, and be a bracer against pain, discomfort, or injury; it may be a release valve for spleen or stress, and in this way, may function as a war cry. Well and good, but don't make it automatically more spiritual than that. A bunch of people shouting because it's expected of them and has been indirectly demanded of them, doesn't make the shout a move of God. Imagine if after he told them to shout, no one did? Or only some did? The next thing said would have been a rebuke for denying the will of God and not getting with it.

Wow! So you're a seer, too!? Not only did either God tell you all this, or you're Omniscient, but you can see the future and what may have happened had no one shouted! AMAZING! You should go on TBN and sell your gift for seed offerings. I mean, I would definitely use it for monetary gain, errr, I mean a ministry.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Just because a bunch of people can respond on cue, doesn't mean anything. How spiritually immature and easily influenced are young people? Children's crusades, anyone (http://www.britannica.com/event/Childrens-Crusade)? Especially when the most famous preacher in the entire movement since Paul is the one giving the order?

You're equating what happened at NAYC to kids being indoctrinated to go to war?

Originally Posted by votivesoul

"At the command of God..." indicating that what Brother Stoneking was about to say was the "command of God", at least according to him. See how easy it is to equate the preacher with the Lord? Maybe God really did speak to him and maybe He really did want all the people there to shout???

But as pointed out above, it doesn't quite gel with the Scriptures the way it should have if God had actually spoken.

Again, amazing! So glad you're going through Stoneking's statement, line by line, and exposing the holes and ripping it to shreds! How dare anyone declare the command of God! (Forget that Billy Cole regularly gave a command of God for people to either be healed or receive the Holy Ghost.) ((And forget prophets and apostles in the Bible also spoke the command of God given to them.))

Glad you also know how God should or shouldn't respond or act. Are you Jesus? Your avatar looks alot like Jesus. Your post doesn't reflect Him at all, but your avatar looks alot like Him!

[n david]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

He's been preaching this for at least a half decade, as I heard him say the exact same thing at Mid-Winter Camp, at Parkway Apostolic Church, in Oak Creek, WI, several years ago. He also led the people there to shout.

So to pass this off as a "fresh word from the Lord" isn't honest. This appears to have been done deliberately.

Aha! The smoking gun! The evidence of which CC1 and others have been searching! Ladies and Gentlemen, how could I have missed it?? Obviously if God speaks to someone and gives them a command, it is good for one use only! God cannot give the same command for another conference if He already did so previously.

Thanks for the commentary on how Stoneking isn't being honest, and how he deliberately lied, deceived, etc.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Which is beside the point, since the human voice, no matter the decibel level, cannot "shred" air molecules. Air molecules are a collection of gases, chiefly nitrogen and then oxygen, (and then, other gases in extra-minute portions, for example argon). To "shred" the molecular bonds of these gases would make the air in the immediate vicinity of the shouter immediately un-breathable.

Yes, air molecules can be separated, but not by soundwaves, rather by massive shifts in temperature (See: http://www.messergroup.com/de/Info_D...or-Life_en.pdf).

And the human voice, no matter how hard one tries, can never generate sufficient temperature variations to cause molecular instability in air molecules (See: http://www.physicscentral.com/explore/poster-coffee.cfm)

You can google all day long the phrase "the human voice shreds air molecules" and you'll never find anything remotely close to whatever he claims to have found out.

Which is again beside the point, because even if somehow, the human voice could "shred" air molecules, it would

1.) Have to get to such a high decibel that everyone within close proximity, including the shouter, would immediately be knocked out if not actually killed. Sound pain threshold is around 150 decibels, meaning, when a noise of any kind gets to that level, people begin to experience pain, even to the bursting of ear drums. And such decibel levels are usually only found next to an explosion, or a jet taking off (See: http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...sound-kill-you).

and/or

2.) still not have any effect upon a spiritual being like Satan or a devil, in that the effect is merely physical. The only thing that would get shredded would be the shouter and the people immediately adjacent.

And now you're a scientist as well! WOW! Dude, I'm genuinely impressed. You should seriously consider TBN or God TV.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Now that the set-up has been properly executed, and the whole convention has been put on notice of the awesome thing God was going to do if they just shouted really loud, the pay-off can be brought to bear on the gullible, i.e. the young and those not educated enough in physics to know that what he just said is a scientific impossibility.

It doesn't matter if he qualified it with "So I understand...". This doesn't get him off the hook FOR BEING FLAT OUT WRONG AND MISLEADING.

This is not about getting my hate on for Lee Stoneking. This is about realizing that we the people of God, as long as we keep buying this type of manipulative nonsense are never going to see the real thing from God. We're all too happy to just keep chopping away at all the substitutional, artificial preacher fodder. So is it any wonder that the "greater works than these" never really manifest the way we all want them to, in the movement?

You must have big ones to be making the accusations you're making. Not even David was willing to do to Saul what you're doing to Stoneking here.

Who needs satanists or atheists when there are Apostolics like you who nit pick, dissect and rip apart every single word the man says. Good grief!

Originally Posted by votivesoul

He just equated the shredding of air molecules (a literal, scientific impossibility) with the shredding of the devil's kingdom, thus leading them all to believe that they were actually shredding actual air molecules in their shout against the devil. He is telling them that the decibel level of their voice in the "shout" is doing something supernatural, as if, as Pressing_On pointed out, it was the level of their voices, and not the work of the Almighty, that was doing the job.

And pray, I thought the purpose of the shout was to deliver them from all fear and inhibitions? Why is it now an assault on the devil? Destroying the works of the devil is no guarantee against fearfulness. The flesh is fully capable of generating its own fear.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Fantastic, if actually so. But 20,000 people a few weeks back all received the power to do signs and wonders like an apostle and no testimonies anywhere since then in the movement indicating that anyone present at NAYC caused the lame to walk, the blind to see, the deaf to hear, or the dead to be raised after they left? Is this a prophecy yet to be fulfilled? A promise from God that He is waiting to do? Have the 20,000 all failed in their newly received commission to, among other things, raise the dead? Or was it all a bunch of sincerely intended, but nonetheless emotional blather?

Hold up. You're wrong here. Well, the whole post is wrong, but whatever. The command and promise was that fear and inhibition would be defeated. After which, Stoneking quoted a scripture.

Now, mock Stoneking all you want. But you will NOT mock the scriptures. Who in the world do you think you are, or should I rather ask: who in the devils hell do you think you are. You sit in your chair and nit pick every word Stoneking uttered, and then mock "WHERE ARE THE MIRACLES?"

Good grief. Again, who needs the satanists and atheists when you're doing their job for them.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Praise God for all that He did do among those who attended. I went once and God blessed me in a way that I've never experienced, not before or since. I'm not ranting against NAYC. Nor am I against shouting, as it's a clear Biblical principle of prayer, intercession, and worship.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

The issue is the deception and manipulation. Signs and wonders are primarily indicators of apostleship. Do not forget that Jesus was speaking to His Twelve first and foremost. How many people I have met over the years utterly discouraged and fretful that no matter how faithful they are, no matter how fervently they pray, no matter how much they give and sacrifice for God, they never see signs and wonders like they assume are promised to them.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In Acts, you never see all believers through the Roman empire performing the signs and wonders. You see a select group of men, apostles all, entrusted with that kind of power/authority. Maybe we've missed that?

So the signs and wonders are just for a select group of men? Apparently "These signs shall follow them that believe" was a misprint. Jesus must, then, have really said, "These signs shall follow a certain and select group of men only."

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I leave you with the following, if anyone cares to read:

https://votivesoul.wordpress.com/201...e-substitutes/

(Insert my shameless self-promotion here!)

Originally Posted by votivesoul

I don't hate Lee Stoneking.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In fact I have defended him (remember the UN sermon post?). In a way, he played an important part in my conversion to Christianity (and I would be happy to share it with anyone who wants to know). It's not the man, but the message, that I take issue with.

Originally Posted by votivesoul

He, like anyone of us can, has made a mistake in this area. We all need to be able to forgive that. But the real issue is that, since he's so famous, so otherwise anointed, has seen the glory of God and has paid the price to do so, over the decades of an otherwise amazing, and amazingly power ministry, that no one in a position to do so, will speak up and say anything about these little flirtings with disaster.

[n david]

One more thing on this quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

In Acts, you never see all believers through the Roman empire performing the signs and wonders. You see a select group of men, apostles all, entrusted with that kind of power/authority. Maybe we've missed that?

What's the full title of Acts again? Oh right, The Acts of the Apostles. Maybe the reason you only read of "a select group of men" doing the miraculous is because the book is only about the "select group of men," and isn't written with stories of the saints. There wouldn't have been enough parchment and quill to write all of what the early church did -- both the "select group of men" and the saints.

Jesus commissioned the 12 to go, heal and preach the kingdom; He then commissioned another 70 to do the same. It wasn't meant to be kept to a "select group of men."

He commanded the disciples to "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations...Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you."

The disciples were instructed to teach all nations everything which Jesus had commanded them -- including to heal and preach the kingdom.

Your view of the miraculous only being done by a "select group of men" is what's wrong with the church today. It's why there's no faith. Why there isn't the miraculous being done. The miraculous has been mocked by others, like you did in your post. It's been limited to a "select group of men," like you've posted.

Is it any wonder why it doesn't happen, when "Apostolics" like you rip apart anyone who dares declare God spoke to them; who dares to declare "These signs shall follow them that believe?"