Your tithes were already paid.

[Sean]

I would love to see my friend, Dan Seagraves PHD, debate Russ Kelly PHD on this subject.


I know every point that Bro. Seagraves can possibly make, but Russ Kelly can annihilate him on this particular subject.

It is a fact... Bro Seagraves has no more info about tithing than anyone else that Russ Kelly has debated.

Russ Kelly has destroyed them all, and my friend, Dan Seagraves had best not show up...respectfully.

[Sean]

If you do not believe me Bro. Perez, then download Russ Kelly's nearly 300 page book on the subject.

You will run out of ammo after about 20 pages.

If you want a summary of how we have tithing in the churches today, start at page 246.


Here it is...

http://www.truthforfree.com/files/PDF/REK-Tithing3.pdf




This book is a "last days" masterpiece.

[J.A. Perez]

Wow,

This guy can tell us all about how not to tithe, but can't explain the mighty God in Christ, or the essentiality of salvation through obedience of Acts 2:38.


Russell Earl Kelly (Russ Kelly) is a Baptist.


One of you brought this guy here, that is just wrong..... In a whole bunch of ways.

You are so desperate to win the argument that you would side with an Egyptian?

This just proves you can't debate or teach stubborn.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by J.A. Perez

Lol, oooooowww what a threat! lol
Seagraves teaches tithing for New Testament believers. The issue is what one believes, and if you can find in the bible scriptures that confirm your faith. The arguments that R.Kelley are easily picked apart. But even if any of us did, the scoffers would still mock. Making a hero out of someone that can only parrot what you say is truly no proof at all for the argument. The fact is those that give their tithe every time they are blessed with a paycheck, truly are blessed with more than they gave. I sure don't want to miss out on anything God has for me. And those that don't, Do not.

This is a very good message taught by a man of God.
I hesatated posting this, but here goes. I know that those that hate preachers love this kind of stuff because it gives them food to chew on. Please at least listen to the whole thing before you criticize.

http://media.truthcasting.com/downlo...I0ZWIwNTVmY2Jj

Elder G. Riggen
-God's Holy Tithe-

Now see? If his arguments can be easily picked apart, then why aren't they being picked apart? I mean it ought to be very simple. Just go through the scriptures, line upon line, precept upon precept, and show the following:

1. God commanded people under the old covenant to pay ten percent of their income 'from whatever source derived' to the priests.
2. Jesus and/or his apostles taught that Christians under the new covenant were to continue doing this, except it was to go to their local elder/pastor/bishop/church treasury.

I would think it would be a simple matter to lay it out. The fact nobody is willing to do that, but instead want to attack the character of those who lay out from the scripture the opposite view, or want to insinuate or claim that those who don't agree with the modern 'tithe' doctrine (so called) must be greedy, stingy, God-robbers, etc etc, indicates that the modern tithe teachers cannot support their doctrine with 'thus sayeth the Lord', from the Scriptures.

Remember, simply posting a verse or two that mentions 'tithing' does not prove the case, because the issue under discussion is 'what exactly IS the tithe commanded in Scripture?'

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey, we have the man on this thread that is the equivalent in his group of Dan Seagraves in the UPC.

But his specialty is the anti-tithe message.

Glad you are here Russ Kelly!

I have presented your info to our ministers and none of them have a rebuttal.

You have this subject perfected!

lol--it's not Russ Kelly.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?

1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.

2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.

3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.

4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.

5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.

6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.

7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.

8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.

9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.

10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.

11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.

12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.

13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.

Would you continue to send money to a church after
a. The building is destroyed?
b. The preacher has been defrocked?
c. The workers have found other jobs?
d. The members have all left?
e. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
f. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
g. You have died?

When you compare Hebrews 7:5, 12 and 18, t is clear that tithing ceased.
Since 7:5 is the first use of "tithes," "commandments" and "law", then it controls the use of the words in chapter 7. Verse 12 says there is a necessary change of the law (of tithing from 7:5). The "change" was not TO GOSPEL WORKERS; the "change" was the annulment of tithing in 7:18.

Sorry I have not had time to respond. Time is short even now but I will give a quick response.
The question asked is where does the Bible say tithes were abolished. This is what the post above is supposed to respond to.

1) Levitical priests abolished - Modern day unpaid ushers etc.
Tithes did not begin with the Levites therefore cannot be abolished because of them.
Modern day unpaid equivalents - How do you know they are all unpaid? Did you create a survey? Did that survey meet statistical requirements for making this assumption or is simply anecdotal evidence?

2) OT Priests received tithes are abolished.
Again this is irrelevant due to the fact that tithing predates the Levitical system.

3) Tithes was only food products.
There was no such thing as currency - literally - until the end of the OT.
see here: http://www.investopedia.com/articles...s_of_money.asp
It gives a brief history but has an advertisement you will have bypass.

4) Again the levitical system.
Irrelevant due to tithes predating the Levites.

5) Again the Levitical system.
Irrelevant due to tithes predating the Levites. Although, most people do not know about the three tithes that were kept.

6) Covenant that prescribed them is abolished.
Wrong. Tithes predate the covenant.

7) Levitical system again.
Irrelevant due to tithes predating the Levites.

8) Same thing.

9) Same thing.

10) Same thing.

11) Temple abolished is the same thing as the Levitical system.
Therefore, irrelevant.

12) Priesthood abolished.
Same thing.

13) Again reliance upon the Levitical system.


Would you continue to send money to a church after
a. The building is destroyed? Yes.
b. The preacher has been defrocked?
c. The workers have found other jobs?
d. The members have all left?
e. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
f. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
g. You have died?

This is again ALL based upon the Levitical system. Abraham predates the Levitical system and tithing was WELL ESTABLISHED in the earth by his time. In fact it is well established as far back as man can go in history.

When you compare Hebrews 7:5, 12 and 18, t is clear that tithing ceased.
Since 7:5 is the first use of "tithes," "commandments" and "law", then it controls the use of the words in chapter 7. Verse 12 says there is a necessary change of the law (of tithing from 7:5). The "change" was not TO GOSPEL WORKERS; the "change" was the annulment of tithing in 7:18.

This is your opinion that tithing has ceased. Ostensibly because you look at tithing very narrowly (through the Levitical system alone).

You believe tithing has ceased based upon the principle that the Levitical system has ceased.
I believe tithing is still in effect due to tithing predating the Levitical system. It is not based upon the Levites.

You could have saved us both a lot of time and just said the levitical system is over therefore tithing is over. I could have quickly responded I disagree because tithing predates that system.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

First, I distinguish between Abraham and Jacob's tithes and the HOLY tithe of the Law as the word is used by Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus. They are not the same; the definition used by Abraham and Jacob would be rejected in a courtroom and it was not allowed in the Law unless it could pass through the fire.

Second, if carpenters, fishermen and tentmakers (non-food producers) were not allowed to tithe under the Old Covenant, what change was made that redefined the HOLY tithe after Calvary?

Third, under the Law the whole Levitical tithe did not go to the ministers, the priests; it went to their servants who did everything else; priests only received 1%. Since we do not give tithes to modern "Levites" --- greeters, ushers, deacons, church builders, church treasurers, etc --- why is that ignored? (Num 18:20-28; Neh 10:37-38).

Fourth, why are not all of the tithing laws followed today? Why are tithe-recipients allowed to own and inherit property and amass great fortunes? This is contrary to Numbers 18:20.

First
Tithe is a tithe. It simply means 10%. You say the definition used by Abraham and Jacob would be rejected in a courtroom, that is simply wrong. Tithing was well established in the earth long before Abraham. Hence, the lack of explanation found concerning it with Abraham. it just happens and it is recorded without explanation because everyone understood the reason why. It would be understood in a courtroom, as you say, because of the historical method of interpretation.

Second
Food production was the reasonable method of tithing in an agrarian society that existed a thousand years before there was anything that remotely resembled currency. Coinage did not exist until around 600 BC and required years before other nations copied the process. There was NO such thing as money or paychecks as we know them. It is simply an attempt to impose a twenty first century interpretation upon an ancient custom.

Third
Under the Law is irrelevant.

Fourth
All tithing requirements:
I don't have time to get into this right now.
Poor Tithe
As food for thought I will say that the Poor tithe has been replaced by charitable giving. In this way giving is not restricted to a small portion. James makes it clear we need to help a brother or sister if we can regardless of a percentage. Thus, NT Poor Tithe demands more than the OT Poor Tithe.

Rejoicing Tithe
This is strictly under the Levitical system. They are to be taken and used in the land of Israel. It is not relevant to the church.

General Tithe
Goes to support the ministry.
Paul said (paraphrased) he works for their spiritual good therefore he should receive of their carnal things. He references the OT and states that the ox is not muzzled. In another passage it is said that the church leaders are worthy of double pay (honor).

No one can say when tithing was established an no one can point to any passage that states tithing has ceased.

Both sides use principles they believe in.
It is clear to me that tithing was well established din the earth prior to Abraham and should be practiced today because it is not based upon the Levitical system.

[Sean]

Pliny, you think that because something predates the law dispensation, it is an eternal moral principal for all men to observe, forever?

Please show us a verse that says that it is an eternal moral principle.

If you cannot show us the verse, then I will know that you made that phrase up out of the blue in Bible school.

[Pliny]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I would think it would be a simple matter to lay it out. The fact nobody is willing to do that, but instead want to attack the character of those who lay out from the scripture the opposite view, or want to insinuate or claim that those who don't agree with the modern 'tithe' doctrine (so called) must be greedy, stingy, God-robbers, etc etc, indicates that the modern tithe teachers cannot support their doctrine with 'thus sayeth the Lord', from the Scriptures.

Remember, simply posting a verse or two that mentions 'tithing' does not prove the case, because the issue under discussion is 'what exactly IS the tithe commanded in Scripture?'

I have to a small degree done this. So you are wrong in saying one one has laid it out. I understand you may disagree but that does not mean that it was not done.

I would like to ask you where I attacked the character of anyone or said or insinuated: those who don't agree with the modern 'tithe' doctrine (so called) must be greedy, stingy, God-robbers, etc etc.

If you cannot do this then you are once again wrong. Modern tithe teachers can and do support their doctrine from the scripture.

Again you can disagree and that is your right but it is equally wrong to make false accusations.

"Remember, simply posting a verse or two that mentions 'tithing' does not prove the case, because the issue under discussion is 'what exactly IS the tithe commanded in Scripture?"

The same can be said of the other side. A complete and total reliance upon the Levitical system ignores the fundamental fact that tithing was well established din the earth prior to the Levites and certainly is afterwards unless there is a specific command that says "thou shalt no longer tithe". Without tithing continues because it is not dependent upon the Levites. The Levites are dependent upon it that's why they paid tithes through Abraham.

Please do not make any more false accusations. You may disagree with the premise and/or the interpretation but that does not mean it has not been laid out. You just simply disagree. That is your prerogative.

Take Care

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Pliny

First
Tithe is a tithe. It simply means 10%. You say the definition used by Abraham and Jacob would be rejected in a courtroom, that is simply wrong. Tithing was well established in the earth long before Abraham. Hence, the lack of explanation found concerning it with Abraham. it just happens and it is recorded without explanation because everyone understood the reason why. It would be understood in a courtroom, as you say, because of the historical method of interpretation.

If it was an eternal principal, where is it commanded by the Apostles to tithe?

Second
Food production was the reasonable method of tithing in an agrarian society that existed a thousand years before there was anything that remotely resembled currency. Coinage did not exist until around 600 BC and required years before other nations copied the process. There was NO such thing as money or paychecks as we know them. It is simply an attempt to impose a twenty first century interpretation upon an ancient custom.

So the Law of tithing in the O.T., can change without Biblical commands, according to modern interpretation?

Third
Under the Law is irrelevant.

Because tithing is universal?....Scripture please?

Fourth
All tithing requirements:
I don't have time to get into this right now.
Poor Tithe
As food for thought I will say that the Poor tithe has been replaced by charitable giving. In this way giving is not restricted to a small portion. James makes it clear we need to help a brother or sister if we can regardless of a percentage. Thus, NT Poor Tithe demands more than the OT Poor Tithe.


Rejoicing Tithe
This is strictly under the Levitical system. They are to be taken and used in the land of Israel. It is not relevant to the church.

So this one can be abolished?

General Tithe
Goes to support the ministry.
Paul said (paraphrased) he works for their spiritual good therefore he should receive of their carnal things. He references the OT and states that the ox is not muzzled. In another passage it is said that the church leaders are worthy of double pay (honor).

Where did Paul say that we must give a percentage of ANY type in the verse?

No one can say when tithing was established an no one can point to any passage that states tithing has ceased.

It was adopted into the Law, which has ceased to the believer.(just like circumcision)

Both sides use principles they believe in.
It is clear to me that tithing was well established din the earth prior to Abraham and should be practiced today because it is not based upon the Levitical system.

Where does it say that, beside your mind?