Your tithes were already paid.

[Russ Kelly]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Biblical Principles are not always stated as "thus saith the Lord". That does not invalidate them when they exist. The Levites were to teach the Israelite's to discern the difference between the clean and the unclean.

(Deu 17:8 KJV) If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
(Deu 17:9 KJV) And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
(Deu 17:10 KJV) And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

The Lord made provision for this because the bible is not an exhaustive book of do's and don'ts.

So back to you. Give me a verse that states tithing ceased. You will shut this all down if that verse exists. All the non-tithe teachers imply it so now produce the verse and win the argument.


You see both camps are basing a teaching upon a principle that is not specifically spelled out.

Where in the Bible Were Tithes Abolished?

1. WHO #1: The Levitical servants to the priests who received the first whole tithe have been abolished. See Numbers 18:21-24. Modern equivalents to the Levites are unpaid ushers, deacons, choir, musicians, etc.

2. WHO #2: OT priests who received a tenth of the tithe (only 1 per cent) have been abolished. See Num 18:25-28 and Neh 10:38.

3. WHAT: The definition of tithes as only food miraculously increased by God from inside His holy land of Israel has been abolished and replaced with the false unbiblical definition of income. See Leviticus 27:30-34 and 14 other texts which describe the contents of the tithe. Yet money was common in Genesis.

4. WHERE: The destination of the OT tithes first to the Levitical cities some to the Temple has been abolished. See Neh 10:37b and Mal 3:10.

5. WHEN: The time to tithe has been abolished. The Levitical tithe was paid yearly in the Levitical cities. The second festival tithe was eaten at the three festivals. The third poor tithe was kept in the home every third year. Tithes totaled 23 1/3 per cent.

6. WHY #1: The covenant which prescribed them was abolished per Heb 8:8-13; Gal 4:21-26' 2 Cor 3:6-10.

7. WHY #2: The "commandment" for Levites and priests to collect tithes was "annulled" per Hebrews 7:5, 12, 18.

8. WHY #3: The law which condemned believers has been rendered of no effect when the believer died in Christ per Romans 7:4. No law can tell a dead person what to do.

9. HOW #1: Jesus abolished the law of commandments contained in ordinances per Eph 2:13. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.

10. HOW $2: Jesus blotted out the handwriting of ordinances, per Col 2:14. Tithing was an ordinance per Num 18.

11. HOW #3: The Temple which tithes supported was abolished in AD 70. God's temple is now within each believer per 1 Cor 3:16; 6:19-20.

12. HOW #4: The priesthood which was supported by tithes was abolished in AD 70. God's priesthood is now within every believer per 1st Peter 2:9-10.

13. HOW #5: The blessings and curses of tithing as part of the whole law have been abolished per Galatians 3:10-13.

Would you continue to send money to a church after
a. The building is destroyed?
b. The preacher has been defrocked?
c. The workers have found other jobs?
d. The members have all left?
e. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
f. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
g. You have died?

When you compare Hebrews 7:5, 12 and 18, t is clear that tithing ceased.
Since 7:5 is the first use of "tithes," "commandments" and "law", then it controls the use of the words in chapter 7. Verse 12 says there is a necessary change of the law (of tithing from 7:5). The "change" was not TO GOSPEL WORKERS; the "change" was the annulment of tithing in 7:18.

[Russ Kelly]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Russ,

I will not argue with you and of this turns ugly by you or anyone else I will bow out once again. You said you wrote a PhD dissertation on tithing. First congratulations! I know it is hard work! With that said I feel like I could easily write a PhD dissertation on tithing as well based on the research I have done.

You said that tithing was always food. You imply that tithing on monetary items sounds good but has no precedent. Then you ask why?

You followup with the observation that church members spend more on themselves than they do the church and that it is a shame.

I don't recall anyone here calling anyone who does not believe in tithing any names and I will not start. However, that cannot be said about the other side of this coin (pun intended). I do want to say I appreciate the post. I have no problem discussing any issue in an adult manner.

I agree with what you have said:
1) "Moses, Nehemiah and Malachi all taught that the tithe was only food".
2) The law never required non-food producers... to tithe.

I disagree with this:
There is no precedent to build the argument upon - speaking of monetary tithing I believe.

I would like to address your question if that is okay with you. You may disagree but hopefully we are not disagreeable in that disagreement.


I have studied tithing in ancient history. I do not have the ability at this time to document my assertions right now but will later if asked. I assume most of this will be familiar toy you anyway.

It seems to me that the biggest issue against tithing is the Law. Since Calvary we are not under the Law therefore tithing should not be part of the NT church. I disagree with this premise. I have asked when did tithing start? Truly there is no answer because we do not know exactly when. I have searched and have an opinion about this. If tithes predated the Law then how can the Law end something that existed previously? It seems to me that the premise is flawed.

A quick note on Abraham:
(Gen 14:20 KJV) And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

if I understood you correctly you said there is no precedent about tithing monetarily. The verse above would indicate otherwise. Tithes were given of all the spoils. This is in keeping with secular history. Most nations, if not all, tithed to their deities. The question I ask myself is why? Why is it ALWAYS 10%. Why not some other number. IMO this is indicative of a common source. I cannot prove this but do believe it. Just as I believe ancient flood stories refer to Noah's flood. These ancient civilization gave 10% of all to their deities. This included gold and silver. So there IS a precedent.

I believe Cain and Able have more to do with tithing than anything else. The LXX seems to affirm this. FTR this is an opinion. other ancient commentators seem to agree with this assessment as well. This would certainly explain why all those other cultures practiced the same thing. IMO they would have carried the practice with them after the Tower of Babel. I cannot prove this but it makes sense to me and I tend to believe it this way. That means tithing was an essential feature since the dawn of man. It would not stop at Calvary.

Concerning the question about food stuffs. There was no such thing as currency until the very end of the OT. This is why when we read about transactions we read about the weight of silver or gold - a shekels weight for example. Currency began with coins but again this was the very end of the OT. It would not make sense to have a law about something that would not exist for another thousand years or more.

This leaves a principle and whether or not we accept the principle or reject it. I accept it but have to get back to work now so hopefully this will provide enough of an answer to provide some food (pun intended) for thought.

Take Care

First, I distinguish between Abraham and Jacob's tithes and the HOLY tithe of the Law as the word is used by Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus. They are not the same; the definition used by Abraham and Jacob would be rejected in a courtroom and it was not allowed in the Law unless it could pass through the fire.

Second, if carpenters, fishermen and tentmakers (non-food producers) were not allowed to tithe under the Old Covenant, what change was made that redefined the HOLY tithe after Calvary?

Third, under the Law the whole Levitical tithe did not go to the ministers, the priests; it went to their servants who did everything else; priests only received 1%. Since we do not give tithes to modern "Levites" --- greeters, ushers, deacons, church builders, church treasurers, etc --- why is that ignored? (Num 18:20-28; Neh 10:37-38).

Fourth, why are not all of the tithing laws followed today? Why are tithe-recipients allowed to own and inherit property and amass great fortunes? This is contrary to Numbers 18:20.

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Not completely true.

Say on Elder!

Reminds me of the story I heard.

Elder Dudley told about debating some Trinitarian preachers at one of their camp meetings.

They all said, after the book of acts you can't show us the word 'water'.

So he turned to the scripture and tried to show them and all they kept saying was "it don't say water, it don't say water"!

They didn't want to see it.

Not that anyone here is equal to a trinitarian just sounds like what some are doing.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

Would you continue to send money to a church after
a. The building is destroyed?
b. The preacher has been defrocked?
c. The workers have found other jobs?
d. The members have all left?
e. The land has been inhabited by non religious people?
f. The purpose for the church no longer exists?
g. You have died?

Very good presentation, nice and concise and to the point.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Russ Kelly

First, I distinguish between Abraham and Jacob's tithes and the HOLY tithe of the Law as the word is used by Moses, Nehemiah, Malachi and Jesus. They are not the same; the definition used by Abraham and Jacob would be rejected in a courtroom and it was not allowed in the Law unless it could pass through the fire.

Second, if carpenters, fishermen and tentmakers (non-food producers) were not allowed to tithe under the Old Covenant, what change was made that redefined the HOLY tithe after Calvary?

Third, under the Law the whole Levitical tithe did not go to the ministers, the priests; it went to their servants who did everything else; priests only received 1%. Since we do not give tithes to modern "Levites" --- greeters, ushers, deacons, church builders, church treasurers, etc --- why is that ignored? (Num 18:20-28; Neh 10:37-38).

Fourth, why are not all of the tithing laws followed today? Why are tithe-recipients allowed to own and inherit property and amass great fortunes? This is contrary to Numbers 18:20.

Abraham and Jacob's tithing was an act of wilful worship. Scripture doesn't say there was a frequency of them doing, but it was done. I honestly think their is some spiritual significance to tithes (ten lepers where healed and one came back to worship). Like many other numbers in the Bible 7's, 12,s, etc. I believe it has spiritual significance. I don't say that as to make tithes mandatory for the NT Church.

I would encourage someone when making a budget to consider tithing as a method, but without compulsory and condemning (not being legalistic). Some people should give more and some may not can even reach ten%. Personally I don't think church ministry should pry into people's incomes anyway. How can a person really know who tithes or doesn't unless they are auditing the congregation lol.

Tithing income is a good method of giving, but there is no command to the NT church to do so. P.S. I have enjoyed your studies on tithing.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Pliny

Biblical Principles are not always stated as "thus saith the Lord". That does not invalidate them when they exist. The Levites were to teach the Israelite's to discern the difference between the clean and the unclean.

(Deu 17:8 KJV) If there arise a matter too hard for thee in judgment, between blood and blood, between plea and plea, and between stroke and stroke, being matters of controversy within thy gates: then shalt thou arise, and get thee up into the place which the LORD thy God shall choose;
(Deu 17:9 KJV) And thou shalt come unto the priests the Levites, and unto the judge that shall be in those days, and enquire; and they shall shew thee the sentence of judgment:
(Deu 17:10 KJV) And thou shalt do according to the sentence, which they of that place which the LORD shall choose shall shew thee; and thou shalt observe to do according to all that they inform thee:

The Lord made provision for this because the bible is not an exhaustive book of do's and don'ts.

So back to you. Give me a verse that states tithing ceased. You will shut this all down if that verse exists. All the non-tithe teachers imply it so now produce the verse and win the argument.


You see both camps are basing a teaching upon a principle that is not specifically spelled out.

The burden of proof is on those who say the tithe as taught today ever existed to begin with. It's not a question of a verse stating tithes were abolished. Rather it's a question of proving there was ever a tithe in the first place instituted by God on anything other than certain assets. There is a vast difference on tithing income and tithing assets and the former simply cannot be found in scripture. The latter did exist but clearly passed away with the Law. Thus I feel no pressure to prove a thing.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Very good presentation, nice and concise and to the point.

Hey, we have the man on this thread that is the equivalent in his group of Dan Seagraves in the UPC.

But his specialty is the anti-tithe message.

Glad you are here Russ Kelly!

I have presented your info to our ministers and none of them have a rebuttal.

You have this subject perfected!

[n david]

I've had a rough 24 hours. The car I drive to work broke down and we had some other issues. I spoke with a friend tonight who asked, "I'm your friend and I want to see you be blessed, are you paying your tithes? I don't understand why these things keep happening with you other than you may not be paying tithes."

Smh

He's a good and close friend, so I don't think badly of him. It's just odd to me why people truly believe God will strike your car or cause other problems if you're not paying tithes.

My mother always asks the same question whenever the car breaks down, we get sick or something else happens.

Smh

[Sean]

It is sad that they believe God is ready to curse us any moment.

I wonder WHO gave them that idea?

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by Sean

Hey, we have the man on this thread that is the equivalent in his group of Dan Seagraves in the UPC.

Lol, oooooowww what a threat! lol
Seagraves teaches tithing for New Testament believers. The issue is what one believes, and if you can find in the bible scriptures that confirm your faith. The arguments that R.Kelley are easily picked apart. But even if any of us did, the scoffers would still mock. Making a hero out of someone that can only parrot what you say is truly no proof at all for the argument. The fact is those that give their tithe every time they are blessed with a paycheck, truly are blessed with more than they gave. I sure don't want to miss out on anything God has for me. And those that don't, Do not.

This is a very good message taught by a man of God.
I hesatated posting this, but here goes. I know that those that hate preachers love this kind of stuff because it gives them food to chew on. Please at least listen to the whole thing before you criticize.

http://media.truthcasting.com/downlo...I0ZWIwNTVmY2Jj

Elder G. Riggen
-God's Holy Tithe-