Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

hmm i'd argue that circumcision of the heart is NT circumcision, not baptism; but i'm out of time, i'll come back later. Have a good day

But baptism is involved in that circumcision of the heart.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is when the circumcision of the heart takes place, which is why baptism is useless without FAITH.
Blessings!

[Godsdrummer]

But what you fail to realize is that God knew if Abraham WOULD GET CIRCUMCISED OR NOT when God saw Abram's heart when it believed. Do you think God would have seen a heart and a faith that he would deem righteous if it was in that heart to not be circumcised when God commanded it later?

That is like saying God does not know the heart of each individual today, and there for requires the proof before accounting righteousness to them as he did Abraham.

Baptism is when the circumcision of the heart takes place, which is why baptism is useless without FAITH.

Mike I agree baptism is the circumcision in the NT. Which makes it all the more something that comes after salvation by faith, just as it did with Abraham. I just don't think you can get around the statement by Paul, "Abraham's faith was counted to him to righteousness before circumcision".

Here is another thought along the same lines. We say Abraham looked for a city whose builder was God, and did not see it. But we see it. What is the one thing in the kingdom today that Abraham did not have? The holy ghost.
As Peter said on the day of Pentecost "this is that" .
You have said and rightly so, the cross tore down the vail of separation. In other words, the cross tore down the temple spiritually with all its sacrifices and oblations, leaving open the way to communion with God open to all mankind by faith.

As has been said before, the message of Peter never was about getting saved. Where do we get this? Because the men ask, "what shall we do?" Man has added the words "to get saved" to that phrase. Peter instructed them to repent, repent for what? Crucifying the Christ. And what were his next words? "and you shall receive the gift of the holy Ghost, for this promise is to you and your children and as many...". Acts is about the spread of the kingdom of God, the city whos builder and maker is God, joining Jew and Gentile into one city (kingdom) through the holy ghost.

As for Peter's statement "save yourselves from this untoward generation" what was going to happen to that generation that did not come into the kingdom of God?

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But baptism is involved in that circumcision of the heart.

Colossians 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Baptism is when the circumcision of the heart takes place, which is why baptism is useless without FAITH.
Blessings!

How can we agree on such things as this yet disagree as to the time frame of application. LOL

[Godsdrummer]

By the way Mike, none of this is meant by me to be derogatory or to imply that I don't think some one is not saved if they do not agree with me. Just laying things out from my point of view. As things continue to come to me looking through a fulfilled point of view.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

That is like saying God does not know the heart of each individual today, and there for requires the proof before accounting righteousness to them as he did Abraham.

No, you totally missed my point. It is saying precisely the opposite. God saw Abram's heart and knew if he would or would not LATER be circumcised BEFORE he was circumcised.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by mfblume

No, you totally missed my point. It is saying precisely the opposite. God saw Abram's heart and knew if he would or would not LATER be circumcised BEFORE he was circumcised.

Does God not look at the heart of the individual today and know if they will or will not be later baptized?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Does God not look at the heart of the individual today and know if they will or will not be later baptized?

Yes! That is my point.

[mfblume]

Shazeep, here is where I was showing what you claim is MY version of the cross. Please show WHY it is not the correct "version" and what Is the correct "versions".

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not sure if shaz shall respond, after reading his post about thinking he'd paint me into a corner I can't get out of. lol (Quite an opinion of oneself, eh?)

But I will lay out my thought, anyway.

Shaz referred to those who say LORD LORD, as if to say my belief is useless since I know Jesus is Lord, and Jesus said many will know that but still be lost. Somehow, Sahz equates that with having no love.

Anyway, here's the truth about the LORD LORD criers.

It goes back to Matt 16. Jesus asked his disciples whom people said He was. Peter explained the truth, and Jesus said THE FATHER him that. And then Jesus said an interesting statement: "And I say ALSO unto thee.,."

In other words, he heard from the Father, but now he had to hear FROM THE SON.

And the words of the Son were more than words of His identity. The Father showed His identity! But that wasbnb't enough. The SON spoke of the cross!

Matthew 16:18-21 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Then the infamous response by Peter took place where he resisted thoughts of the cross and death, obviously thinking of his own neck, as usual. If they'd kill Jesus, what about Peter?

Matthew 16:22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. (23) But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Then Jesus proceeded to push the CROSS again, even moreso.

Matthew 16:24-26 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. (25) For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. (26) For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

Not only is the cross important and not to be rejected, but to resist it is to lose one's soul. Resisting it, like Peter was, was saving his own neck. And Jesus said you have to lose your life, let alone die with the cross, or else lose it for eternity!

This is where Matt 7's Lord, Lord criers come into play.

Jesus said many would know His identity! Many would know what Peter came to know, even by the work of the Father! You cannot know Jesus is LORD except by the Spirit.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

So, we know a genuine miracle occurs for someone to know Jesus is Lord. the Father has to reveal it by the Spirit. Peter experienced that.

But THAT IS NOT ENOUGH! (And you thought I never knew that, shazeep. )

Jesus HAD MORE TO SAY TO PETER after Peter knew His identity by the Spirit. Jesus spoke of DOING SOMETHING. Taking up the cross and denying self.

This is precisely what Jesus continued to say in Matt 7 as well.

Matthew 7:22-24 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (24) Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Just like Mat 16, Jesus said HIS WORDS must be heard and obeyed, as He spoke and ADDED to the Father's word. So, first his identity is learned, THEN SECONDLY the cross is explained. THAT is how you go beyond simply knowing Him as Lord and still being lost.

The DOING is obeying the WORDS OF JESUS. So, we must go beyond knowing and calling Him Lord. We must DO SOMETHING now.

And the DOING puts us on the rock. This is what ties into Mat 16. Jesus' words that HE ALSO SAID to Peter after the Father spoke to Peter would PUT HIM ON THE ROCK and the gates of hell, like the waves, wind and sea, will not prevail against the church.

And what are those WORDS WE MUST DO? THE CROSS! Take up the cross, and deny yourself.

The reason the Lord Lord criers were called workers of iniquity, was because they were not carrying their crosses, and crosses crucify that iniquity do we do not work it any more.

So, it still points to the cross!

It's not that LOVE ONE ANOTHER is not important and vital. But it does not save anyone. the cross saves. Without love all the gifts by the name of the Lord are nothing! But LOVE has a place and it certainly is not how to be saved from sin. The cross and the cross ONLY saves from sin, and one has to consciously apply the work of that cross to be saved. That's why muslims are lost, etc. Not to rehash that argument again, but to make a point in the overall discussion.

Saved by child birth is also pointing to the cross, which you denied Shaz. But to make my point, the CROSS is the middle of everything.

And as you indicated, no greater love has any man. But that means the greatest love ever known was Jesus dying for us, so that cross would be provided for us to be baptized into his death. His love was shed abroad by having made the provision for us to be saved by the cross. And you actually miss the whole point of love, if you think people can be saved without knowing anything about the cross, since the CROSS is what HIS LOVE pointed us to!

[shazeep]

there is no need to do this in stereo, the argument is on the OSAS thread. You can admit with your mouth that Christ died for your sins, and still deny the cross by your works, which preaching that Acts 2:38 saves you encourages, whether it means to or not.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by shazeep

there is no need to do this in stereo, the argument is on the OSAS thread. You can admit with your mouth that Christ died for your sins, and still deny the cross by your works, which preaching that Acts 2:38 saves you encourages, whether it means to or not.

And you must deny this, then:

"And behold, I send the promise of My Father upon you; but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem until ye be endued with power from on high.”

shaz - was the resurrection necessary, since the cross did all the work?