Numerical Growth Is Not A Sign Of Revival... - Page 12

Godsdrummer · #**111** 01-31-2016, 09:08 AM

Questions that need an answer:
[list][*]What was Noah delivered from BEFORE THE FLOOD? Peter's chapter is about the water delivering him. Salvation is deliverance.

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Which brings us back to the question, when is salvation in effect? At baptism, speaking in tongues, or as it is written over and over in the NT by faith without works?
One can argue this point all they want, but when I hear someone say "if your not baptized your not saved" I think what they mean is the salvation is by baptism without faith.
Either it is "by faith are you save and not of works" or "by baptism are you saved without faith".

[*]How is mikvah anything related to putting us into the death of Jesus (Ro 6:3)?

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Oh common Mike, where do you think baptism originated from? Do you think John came on the seen demanding baptism if they did not already know about baptism? When John came preaching repentance and baptism, baptism was not a new thing. It was derived from the Mikvah washings of the law.

[*]How is circumcision mandatory, or else folks weren't allowed in the religious activity of Israel? How does baptism fit in theology in the way that circumcision was demanded in order to get involved in worship in Israel? Translate that demand of circumcision for involvement in worship into New Testament baptism.

It is as Paul wrote in Romans 4, it was the seal of the covenant. It was what circumcision represented, not what it did. Circumcision did nothing but mutilate the body, it did not make one clean. It represented cleanness. Just as baptism does not clean one but represents burial with Christ, represents being cleaned from sin.
Believing that the literal act of water baptism is the exact point sins are washed away, is much like the religious leaders of Christ day, that accused the disciples of eating with unwashed hands. They believed that evil spirits could come into a person if they did not wash their hands before eating.
It is a tradition of man, that water baptism is the point sins are washed away. The cross washed away all sins, and we accept that by faith, period.

"as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the son of man be lifted up, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life".

Godsdrummer · #**112** 01-31-2016, 09:13 AM

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Originally Posted by Esaias

Acts 22:16

And now, why tarriest thou? Arise, and be baptised, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Baptism, washing our sins away, and calling on the name of the Lord are inseparable in the thinking of the apostolic church in the Bible. They go together. The apostles and the early church did not separate them the way so many people do today.

Ananias believed certain things, and they determined how he spoke. The things he believed led him to say things like 'be baptised and wash away your sins'. Everyone's beliefs manifest in how they speak. 'Out of the heart the mouth speaketh.' So one's beliefs can be seen by how one expresses them. You say baptism is 'not to wash our sins away'. Ananias said 'be baptised and wash your sins away'. It is therefore obvious your belief in regards to the subject is different from that held by Ananias and the early church.

Now, if anyone in this world had the truth, it would be the early church. If anyone had the correct doctrine concerning baptism, it would be them. If anyone understood the truth about baptism and sins and washing away of sins, it would be them. So if we today have a different view than they did, it follows we do not have the truth, do not have the correct doctrine, and do not understand the truth. Otherwise, if we did, we would express it the way they did.

If one person believes X, and it leads them to say 'be baptised and wash away your sins', and another person believes Y, and it leads them to say 'baptism is not for washing away sins', then it is obvious without any possibility of refutation that Y and X are contraries. Which means the person who believes Y believes contrary to the person who believes X.

People often say 'baptism doesn't save us.' Yet Peter said 'baptism saves us'. Two opposite and mutually exclusive, mutually contradictory statements. Indicating two opposite and contradictory doctrines and beliefs.

So which is correct? Which one has the truth?

I submit the apostles and the early church had the truth. And anything contrary to their doctrine and belief is contrary to the truth, and therefore would be false.

Yes who has the truth, the religious leaders of Christ day derived all their teachings from the OT. Yet Christ said, "you search scripture thinking you have eternal life but they speak of me".
So yes who has truth, those that continue to add action upon action in order to be saved, or those that have simple faith in Christ?

Godsdrummer · #**113** 01-31-2016, 09:21 AM

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Originally Posted by mfblume

It delivered him from a world where everybody thought nothing but wickedness.

Genesis 6:5 KJV And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And the water delivered Noah, which is what SAVED actually means. Whether Noah was righteous before the flood or not, the point remains WATER delivered Noah. So, in your theology, what did water deliver him from, if not what I refer to in Gen 6?

Entrance into HIS DEATH is what baptism is about.

Fact remains we're baptized into Christ's death, and all the types in the Old Testament require a plain statement in the New that stands as it santitype.

Entrance saw destruction of the wicked.

Romans 6:6 KJV Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Colossians 2:11-12 KJV In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: (12) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

Nope. When we read baptism SAVES that means it's part of it. I'm only quoting bible. Nothing more. It is part of what DELIVERS. Without it something is missing.

No one is saying baptism does not represent those things in scripture, what I am saying is that is all they do, represent deliverance, and being buried, etc.
One might want to remember that the religious leaders of Christ day got all their traditions from quoting OT scripture too, yet Christ told them that was all they were "traditions of men".
"SEARCH THE SCRIPTURE THINKING YOU HAVE FOUND ETERNAL LIFE BUT THEY SPEAK OF ME"
(Christ)

Godsdrummer · #**114** 01-31-2016, 09:30 AM

And numerical growth is not a sign of revival.

shazeep · #**115** 01-31-2016, 10:21 AM

nice

Esaias · #**116** 01-31-2016, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Yes who has the truth, the religious leaders of Christ day derived all their teachings from the OT. Yet Christ said, "you search scripture thinking you have eternal life but they speak of me".
So yes who has truth, those that continue to add action upon action in order to be saved, or those that have simple faith in Christ?

In other words, those who derive their doctrine from Scripture are like the Pharisees. so you just admit that 'truth' is not derived from Scripture, and that you believe those who get their ideas from the Bible are like Pharisees and are in darkness. That is, IF they contradict your beliefs. Because you certainly do not seem to shy away from using the Bible to prove what you believe on various issues.

So those 'who have simple faith in Christ' are those who reject the bible, the words of Jesus, the teachings of his apostles, and instead accept a Johnny come lately, 19th century baptist/evangelical version of 'truth'.

Uh, that may tickle YOUR fancy, but I don't buy it.

shazeep · #**117** 01-31-2016, 12:41 PM

well, you gotta see that the RCC prolly says the same of OPs, so what is the diff?

mfblume · #**118** 01-31-2016, 12:42 PM

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

And numerical growth is not a sign of revival.

Amen!!! Who said it was?

mfblume · #**119** 01-31-2016, 12:43 PM

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Originally Posted by shazeep

well, you gotta see that the RCC prolly says the same of OPs, so what is the diff?

Of course! Always think the worst, after all. No one could actually mean the truth of the issue

mfblume · #**120** 01-31-2016, 12:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

No one is saying baptism does not represent those things in scripture, what I am saying is that is all they do, represent deliverance, and being buried, etc.
One might want to remember that the religious leaders of Christ day got all their traditions from quoting OT scripture too, yet Christ told them that was all they were "traditions of men".
"SEARCH THE SCRIPTURE THINKING YOU HAVE FOUND ETERNAL LIFE BUT THEY SPEAK OF ME"
(Christ)

They speak of Christ and him crucified. A work of God actually occurs in baptism due to our faith and obedience . It's not mere representation.

Again water actually delivered Noah. What does water baptism actually deliver anyone from if it's only symbolic? Peter said it delivers