Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

ok well i've just lost an hour replying, which seems to happen depressingly often here, so this won't be as comprehensive, but yes i'm aware that you would put that differently, the same as i do not mean salvation by works. We can agree that you believe Muslims, as well as a whole host of other people--basically anyone who does not agree with you--are lost, right? Or please put that however seems best to you.

[Godsdrummer]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok well i've just lost an hour replying, which seems to happen depressingly often here, so this won't be as comprehensive, but yes i'm aware that you would put that differently, the same as i do not mean salvation by works. We can agree that you believe Muslims, as well as a whole host of other people--basically anyone who does not agree with you--are lost, right? Or please put that however seems best to you.

Let us forget about the Muslims and bad people a minute. What about good people that believe in God and Jesus Christ but have not been save per certain teachings, is God going to judge them to hell because they "have not come to THE TRUTH as you some teach it?"

[shazeep]

yes. Good points about baptism over there btw, Gd.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Let us forget about the Muslims and bad people a minute. What about good people that believe in God and Jesus Christ but have not been save per certain teachings, is God going to judge them to hell because they "have not come to THE TRUTH as you some teach it?"

What teaching is the bare minimum necessary to escape hell? What does it mean to 'believe in God and Jesus Christ', and why is even that necessary? Where do you get that from? Who says so?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

ok well i've just lost an hour replying, which seems to happen depressingly often here, so this won't be as comprehensive, but yes i'm aware that you would put that differently, the same as i do not mean salvation by works. We can agree that you believe Muslims, as well as a whole host of other people--basically anyone who does not agree with you--are lost, right? Or please put that however seems best to you.

It's not about agreeing with me. Lol. you keep twisting to that way. That's disingenuous

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Godsdrummer

Let us forget about the Muslims and bad people a minute. What about good people that believe in God and Jesus Christ but have not been save per certain teachings, is God going to judge them to hell because they "have not come to THE TRUTH as you some teach it?"

What do you think? Do you think people who reject the word saying he died can be saved? You tell us?

[shazeep]

i can tell you, for what it's worth, that you are insisting upon a very legal definition for that idea--and also a purely verbal one--when Christ is a Spirit, and is not bound by your understanding. If someone is carrying a cross, declarations mean little; and if they are not carrying a cross, their declarations become hypocrisy. This is why we have several parables, indicating that salvation is not what the church defines it to be.

So a companion question might be do you think people who accept that idea, with their mouth, are saved?

Originally Posted by mfblume

It's not about agreeing with me. Lol. you keep twisting to that way. That's disingenuous

well, it might be bald, but it is true in a sense, even for me; although i have a less legalistic definition of this now, centered around love. You say you want to talk Bible, but there is obviously quite a bit of Scripture that you don't accept; which might be true for anyone, i guess, but a point is that i think you see, or at least have been shown, where you do not even really believe all of your dogma, either. And hopefully are less certain about "proving" povs with Scripture? (So if i am copping out, it is to avoid bringing up "gutless" posts that have been avoided)

What is the fractionation into countless Christian sects, but an endless string of egos focused on the unimportant, the seen, and determined to shine a "new" truth? But this is how the Kingdom advances, i guess. It is a process, just like salvation. If you can find me one, single quote where someone in the Bible "was saved, that day," then i would have to reconsider.

Do you really think you just picked the "right" religion, and that most people are doomed because they picked the "wrong" one? Don't you see the ego in this?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i can tell you, for what it's worth, that you are insisting upon a very legal definition for that idea, when Christ is a Spirit, and is not bound by your understanding.

well, it might be bald, but it is true in a sense, even for me; although i have a less legalistic definition of this now, centered around love. You say you want to talk Bible, but there is obviously quite a bit of Scripture that you don't accept;

Present the scripture. Talk about those verses. i accept them all.

But everytime I ask you figure some way to not do so.

Consider this. Your theology proposes the bible is written in such a way that YOUR ideas will stand no matter what scripture says. What I mean is, you feel if anyone sees something in scripture that counters your view, then that scripture is considered by you to have been intentionally written by God so as to deceive the one presenting it to you. In this way you can never be wrong! So in reality it is YOUR ideas being forced upon scripture, and no one can counter them since you have that same argument every time. I present scripture that flatly contradicts your beliefs, and instead of actually discussing the scripture to see if it really counters you or not, you disregard such and discussion and simply repeat a strawman argument that it's MY ideas for which I am seeking agreement.

But you should know I do not think like you do. In reality you're projecting YOUR way of approach onto everyone else who disagrees with you, by accusing them of insisting THEIR beliefs are right and all others are wrong.

But to someone who believes the Bible is not written to deceive, but considers the distortion of the word an incidental result of dishonest hearts, the bible is something to learn from and gain our beliefs from. You spent over half your life, I think it was, with Muslims whom you've come to appreciate as anyone would. But you disregarded plain scripture that states denial of the Son of God is antichrist, and took the plain teaching of the Word and made it of none effect. You expose this by lack of willingness to actually talk about those scriptures.

which might be true for anyone, i guess, but a point is that i think you see, or at least have been shown, where you do not even really believe all of your dogma, either. And hopefully are less certain about "proving" povs with Scripture?

You do this all the time. You make all these claims, and when I ask you to prove it and discuss the very scripture with which you claim I do it, you bail. You refuse. In short you make strawman arguments and cannot deal with my actual claims of faith.

What is the fractionation into countless Christian sects, but an endless string of egos focused on the unimportant, the seen, and determined to shine a "new" truth?

There is no new truth for the last two thousand years since the New Covenant came into being. IN fact, it was n't really new then, either, just revealed from mystery.

But this is how the Kingdom advances, i guess. It is a process, just like salvation. If you can find me one, single quote where someone in the Bible "was saved, that day," then i would have to reconsider.

I did. I showed you the bible saying people WERE saved, are being saved and will be saved. You never so much as acknowlewdged that proposition.

Do you really think you just picked the "right" religion, and that most people are doomed because they picked the "wrong" one?

And here goes the strawman arguing again. It has nothing to do with picking. It has nothing to do with desiring a faith that claims most people are in the wrong religion.

That is how the natural minds thinks, S. They look at all the religions, and consider the truth to be a needle in a haystack. So, instead of believing there is a God who really can guide a sincere heart to truth, they consider what THEY THINK it should be. That's why you keep projecting all these inapplicable accusations against me. They're actually YOUR beliefs. You WANT the bible to include muslims and anyone else, despite plain attacks in their faith to what the word demands as foundational truths. And because YOU WANT that so much, you convince yourself any scripture presented to you to counter that view is not saying what your critic claims it's saying. IN reality, you cannot explain what the verse actually says, but you've convinced yourself it cannot be saying what you disagree with. So you don't even look at the verse and deal with it.

This way you continue on in your presumed "truth", and continue to strawman every argument you encounter, and keep yourself from actually dealing with scriptures presented to you.

Once again, you avoided actually discussing scripture. Go ahead, and continue to build your strawmen. I guess one can only pray for you. You certainly won't discuss scripture.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What teaching is the bare minimum necessary to escape hell?

really?

but this is most peoples' starting premise, isn't it? So i see why you might phrase it this way, although i see that it does not define you so much. No one is led to God this way, imo. If i pastored a church, i would begin every service with asking who is interested in the answer to this question; and then dismissing those people.

[mfblume]

Shazeep, how many ways can you make a post by avoiding scriptural discussion, and instead continue the strawman arguments? I can't keep up the count!