See how it can play into one's ego to assure them that all they have to do is repeat after you down front, and get baptized, to be "accepted." They then become qualified to, essentially, look down their nose at all the "lost" people, which is--by their own admission (or lack thereof--inability to admit suffices!)--everyone who does not believe like they do.
It draws psychopaths. Which i hesitate to put it that way; psychopaths are rarely like ax murderers or anything, so let's just say the narcissistic ego-bound. It provides them false cover. Not that this happens every time by any means, but it is prevalent. It is also a great way to turn many of the rest, who were seekers after God, into dead people, who think they have found all the truth that they need, and are now just waiting to die and go to heaven, proclaiming "Ha, Glory!" like Fred Sanford's SIL, and "evangelizing" all the way.
So i will repeat a secret, that everyone knows; if you stop looking for sinners to help--which is a reflection of an attitude, a mindset--and focus on the good in someone, and encourage that, sinners will come looking for you. You will literally have to get in a boat and go fishing to get a break. It has been argued to me that pastors have a different, special mandate, but i think that reflects a mindset also, and is most likely self serving yack.
i don't think there is even any arguing that that is how the passage reads; but i have been convicted for some time now that a person's heart is revealed in how they interpret Scripture.
That's for sure.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
See how it can play into one's ego to assure them that all they have to do is repeat after you down front, and get baptized, to be "accepted." They then become qualified to, essentially, look down their nose at all the "lost" people, which is--by their own admission (or lack thereof--inability to admit suffices!)--everyone who does not believe like they do.
It draws psychopaths. Which i hesitate to put it that way; psychopaths are rarely like ax murderers or anything, so let's just say the narcissistic ego-bound. It provides them false cover. Not that this happens every time by any means, but it is prevalent. It is also a great way to turn many of the rest, who were seekers after God, into dead people, who think they have found all the truth that they need, and are now just waiting to die and go to heaven, proclaiming "Ha, Glory!" like Fred Sanford's SIL, and "evangelizing" all the way.
So i will repeat a secret, that everyone knows; if you stop looking for sinners to help--which is a reflection of an attitude, a mindset--and focus on the good in someone, and encourage that, sinners will come looking for you. You will literally have to get in a boat and go fishing to get a break. It has been argued to me that pastors have a different, special mandate, but i think that reflects a mindset also, and is most likely self serving yack.
Honestly Shazeep, I say this without any intent to debate or argue or make some accusation... in pure honesty, I don't understand your points.
The bible is very clear that t he saved have no right to see themselves as "special" or better. So saved folk, following the mandate to evangelize cannot be conflated with considering ones self to be better. Those are two utterly different things.
It blows my mind that anyone would think that narcissism is somehow prevalent in evangelical circles... or are you only suggesting in OP circles?
You suggest that we stop "looking for sinners" and "go fish" in the same breath.
don't go and go? all in one breath?
I fail to understand you.
Paul commands me to not "think too highly of myself as God has dealt to all men the measure of salvation." I teach this. Salvation is no indication that one can use to say they are good.
I TEACH often that we don't put our lives together then go to God and show him how good we are. He is the creator of all good. He has no need of our "stuff". Rather, we go to God in ackowlegement of our brokenness.... and I am speaking of the saved and the unsaved. ALL have fallen...
None of that has anything whatsoever to do with seeking to save those that are lost. none of that is an injunction to not identify those that are in need of salvation.
Peter clearly preached on the day of Pentecost with ACCUSATION when he said these he was speaking to were guilty of killing Christ. And he went on to say "save yourselves".
Likewise Paul was clear on many occasions pointing out hypocrisy in the church, and who was lost and who needed to hear the gospel.
Now any time you have the saved pointing to the lost and attempting to scoreboard, there you have an issue that in deed needs to be dealt with.
but we aren't talking about that. We really don't understand each other.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
oh, we are actually pretty close in our thinking, imo. I just admit to some different terms than you, for things like "saved"
The bible is very clear that t he saved have no right to see themselves as "special" or better. So saved folk, following the mandate to evangelize cannot be conflated with considering ones self to be better. Those are two utterly different things.They can be, sure. But often they are not. You have accepted a definition of "saved" that you cannot defend against Scripture. Some Scripture, but not all Scripture.
It blows my mind that anyone would think that narcissism is somehow prevalent in evangelical circles... or are you only suggesting in OP circles?
Prolly more prevalent in the more fundamental religions, yes. "Pastor" is the 8th most popular profession for psychopaths. This does not mean that there aren't many humble, Spirit led OP pastors out there though; but that wolves in sheep's clothing abound, and be aware of it.
You suggest that we stop "looking for sinners" and "go fish" in the same breath.
don't go and go? all in one breath?
I fail to understand you.
The fault lies in seeing other's faults. God forgives them, and takes no notice; pastors generally do not. It is to build up one's ego that one observes faults in others. Who has to go looking for sinners? They are everywhere, and everyone. All have sinned. You likely did not become perfect when you got Jesus, i don't know; but "getting Jesus" is the worst thing that can happen to some people, notice that? and they are just the obvious ones, that possibly reflect a much larger common pov, also reflected in "I'm saved now, so i should go help people," which just chases most people off.
As to the rest, a big amen! I am just restating it, i guess.
Salvation without works to earn it makes people feel no better than anyone else. As Paul asked, where is boasting?
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
well but please it's pretty obvious that he was asking "Why are you boasting?"
i can admit to more than one period of pride in my walk; it is even a recurring issue after getting some new knowledge.
well but please it's pretty obvious that he was asking "Why are you boasting?"
No, he is asking hypothetically as though someone might answer a particular way, and answering his own questions after having written that its Christ's righteousness, not ours, thats counted.
Watch.
Romans 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
well, how is saying "All Muslims are lost" not boasting? Because you have found a reason to contend with them, to find fault with them, over the way they hold their mouth at some dogma, offending you? So Paul is accusing you. There are even some other passages that deal with "boasting of faith."
well, how is saying "All Muslims are lost" not boasting? Because you have found a reason to contend with them, to find fault with them, over the way they hold their mouth at some dogma, offending you? So Paul is accusing you. There are even some other passages that deal with "boasting of faith."
How is the above any different then your assumption of why we believe all Muslims are lost?
__________________ "all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."
~Declaration of Independence
and they are just the obvious ones, that possibly reflect a much larger common pov, also reflected in "I'm saved now, so i should go help people," which just chases most people off.
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