True or False: Grace is harder than Law

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

If God has provided strength for us to mature and overcome sinful activity more and more, albeit we always struggle with the flesh, and we cast this entire aspect of the cross aside, I think it doesn't sit ell with God.

i couldn't disagree there, tbh; i just have been seeking to understand the Cross in a more spiritual light in response to the groundswell against what i might describe as too literal an acceptance of the Cross--or if not then in whatever it is that fosters so much hypocrisy. i certainly would not wanna be the guy who heard about Christ, but rejected the literal message for whatever reason, instead thinking i had a better way to God; but i know about a son who said that he would not, too, yet he went and did anyway.

Of course what is inescapable is that no one is going to fool God; yet we are told that many are going to fool themselves, and these must be conflated with those who declared they do believe, and would go work toward the harvest...and there is only one way to tell the difference that i can see.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

..."I know. I forgive you."

What am I trying to say? That while you were yet a sinner, Christ died for you. Being in Christ doesn't necessarily mean you won't ever sin. But being in Christ means sins are not imputed to you, so even if you do sin, you merely need to confess it to God, and in an instant, the debt and weight of that sin is gone forever.

The penalty was already paid. Isaiah 53, right? Unless and until God removes the imputed state of righteousness He gave you when He saved you, you are, even now, living a sinless life of perfection.

very nice. i would however suspect any model that allows one to be confident they have been given the yardstick to measure other adherents by.

Iow if you can show sinners where your doctrine leads to eternal life @ conversion no matter what, then you better be able to show them those who follow the same path and will hear "I never knew you." Beware the illusion of certainty, you, who would have blessed assurance.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen.



Exactly, which is why many with the Holy Ghost still sin.

From what I studied in Romans 6, Paul said that unless we know we died with Jesus so we could be dead to sin, and rise in newness of life, and come to God in faith with that mindset, we will sin. We will think we have to sin. And whatever we think we have to do, we will find ourselves doing it. So, Paul changes our expectations, and shows us we can expect victory if we understand the purpose of Christ's death and our baptism into it. We need confidence and God sees this faith for the purpose of His Spirit, and will empower us.

So, it is MUCH MORE than having the Holy Ghost.

It reminds me of Israel having the Ark. God's Presence. And they spied out Canaan and doubted they could enter. Joshua and Caleb said GOD IS WITH US! We can do this. But the other people looked at their own natural abilities, and looked at the giants and walls, and said they could not.

This showed God's power was abandoned and they relied on themselves. And God COULD NOT HELP THEM. Same with us. We can have the Holy Ghost like they had the Ark. But if we still rely on ourselves and not His power, we will fail.

Notice 39 years later they held the ark aloft and opened up the Jordan and brought down the same kind of walls their parents feared!

The children of Israel where doubting their entrance and victory of the promised land. That promised land is heaven.BTW, I don't doubt my salvation. All of Israel would of thought it to be absurd that they would reach a place of literal perfection in this life. The reason they were even given the law was as temporary way to God for their sins until Christ.

To me even if we aren't committing sin we are going to have sinful thoughts to come to us. I believe John the beloved wanted to call down fire from heaven upon people's head. We must continue to trust in the grace of God. The Holy Ghost is only the earnest of our inheritance. We have more to come. I believe we are in the kingdom of God at present, but I don't believe that the kingdom is complete at present. Heaven is our eternal inheritance.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The bolded parts are what I was talking about when I said people have misunderstood what sanctification is actually about. It is not a 'one stop ZAP experience' that means you CANNOT ever do anything wrong ever again. Cruise control Christianity, of whatever flavor, always results in failure.

I am willing to demonstrate, however, that Paul was entirely sanctified, and was not stumbling around 'failing'. Whether any man ever is truly sanctified has no bearing on whether or not the Bible teaches we can - and must - be. If you believe in free will, then you must admit it is POSSIBLE that NOBODY believed or believes the gospel, yet that would not make it false or a failure.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Romans 3:3-4 KJV)

Things are starting get a little complicated and I don't know if we are trying to say the same things, but only from different perspectives. I am not talking about being a clumsy steward of the Gift of God. I refer only to the impossibility for flesh to be perfect. Votive said it earlier, that we that are born after the Spirit becomes the sons of God. We don't discard are children if they make mistakes, but we may chasten. To me it is self righteous to act as if we are some walking perfection. All the good that I am I owe to Christ. I am not justifying a right to fail, but only saying that when we do fail we have an advocate with the Father. We are not free to sin, but free from sin. In other words things may sometimes go wrong, but I am no longer bound by sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Hey, bro. I hope what I'm about to write in response to the above, is edifying, and perhaps can help you see some things in a different light. If the Spirit bears witness with your spirit, then praise the Lord!

I think the thing we must remember, first of all, is that sin is like a debt, or a weight, and IT MUST BE IMPUTED. The same for righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21)!

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute sin, right (Romans 4:7)?

So, here we are, in the New Covenant of grace. Christ has made atonement through His blood, and the Father is fully and completely propitiated. After all, God was in Christ, not imputing our trespasses against us.

What this means is, as long as we are walking in the Spirit, and not fulfilling the lusts of our flesh, we are considered righteous by God. What does this mean?

Righteous means to be considered totally, morally innocence. To be righteous is to be justified, and vice versa. The two, disparate English words both refer back to the same ONE word in Greek.

There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. We aren't covenanted to God the Father by a yo-yo string. Up, down, up, down, righteous, unrighteous, saved, not saved.

Once we have been rescued by the Savior, and our sins have been remitted by the blood of the Lamb, they are fully and eternally carried away (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Micah 7:18-20). But guess what? Jesus died not only for the sins you committed pre-conversion, but also those sins you committed post-conversion. If not, then 1 John 1:9 cannot be applied, as the blood of Jesus can't cleanse us of any sins committed after first being saved.

So, what does this mean? When Jesus called out "Father, forgive them...", this intercession wasn't just for you while you were a sinner, it was also for you after you became a saint!

So guess what? If righteousness has been imparted to you by your faith in Jesus, and His merit, you are innocent before the Lord, of any and all charges the Accuser might try to cast at your feet.

So, your faith makes you whole. If you are righteous (by faith) you are perfect. Nothing needs to be added to you (the real idea behind Biblical perfection; from the Greek word teleos).

You can't be made more righteous. No extra justification can be given you. You aren't any more saved today than when you first believed.

The moment you came up out of the water, speaking in tongues, you were made perfect and complete. And blessed is the man to whom the LORD will not impute sins.

So, sinless perfection isn't about our actions alone, i.e. our attempts at not sinning. It's also about whether or not God has imputed sin to our account.

And if you are saved, and you are, then guess what? You are righteous before God, by your faith, and His grace, meaning no sins are being imputed to you, meaning you are already living a life of sinless perfection.

Is this a license then, to sin? God forbid. But what it is, is a license to realize you have been given mercy, and that grace is freely given. God isn't holding it back, waiting to see if you're going to fall or not.

He is a FATHER! My children always, always, always, have my unconditional love. They make many mistakes, they disobey, they act out, they fail, morally and otherwise, but none of that keeps them from my love, my affection, my grace, my forgiveness, or my status as their Father.

Sanctification is less about doing all the right things so you can maintain holiness in your life. Rather, sanctification is more about learning how you were already made holy the day God saved you, and that you are completely free to walk in the Spirit without interference from your flesh, so long as you keep trusting on the Lord, and WHAT HE DID, instead of yourself, and what you can do to add merit to yourself.

Even things like confession and repentance, while important and necessary, don't save us, or keep us saved. Rather, they are merely the conduits by which we can continue to walk in grace and mercy.

If none of our works of righteousness caused God to save us when He first did, how in the world should we expect any works of righteousness which we now attempt to maintain keep us saved?

The power is in God, and the Gospel of His Son.

Imagine a scenario:

Tomorrow, you are less than completely honest at work about something. You fib a bit, portraying the situation in a different, but not altogether, accurate light.

Later, while at home, as you pray, you feel the sting of conviction. You confess to God and say "Lord, I told a lie today. I'm sorry. Please forgive me."

While you may never hear God speak back to you in an audible way, you might very well imagine His response as being something like this:

"I know. I forgive you."

What am I trying to say? That while you were yet a sinner, Christ died for you. Being in Christ doesn't necessarily mean you won't ever sin. But being in Christ means sins are not imputed to you, so even if you do sin, you merely need to confess it to God, and in an instant, the debt and weight of that sin is gone forever.

The penalty was already paid. Isaiah 53, right? Unless and until God removes the imputed state of righteousness He gave you when He saved you, you are, even now, living a sinless life of perfection.

I agree with this. I think you are misunderstanding what I believe. That whole post I put was a rebuttal to MB. I may be understanding Mr. Blume wrong, but I am taking it that he was suggesting we become perfect in our own actions after our new birth. In other words we become a walking image sinless perfection. We are made perfect by the works of Christ and through his eyes. It is an impossibility to never commit what is known as a sin again, but our sins are paid for at the cross. As Esaias said as well, sanctification is a daily thing. We must continually abide in Christ.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

The children of Israel where doubting their entrance and victory of the promised land. That promised land is heaven.BTW, I don't doubt my salvation.

Are there giants in heaven and walls to take down, and nations to drive out?

Hebrews 3 says there is a partaking of Christ that Israel foreshadowed when they failed to enter the land. And chapter 4 takes that and calls it the REST that we must enter in this life. I do not think that is heaven. It's not heaven. Is Heaven denied for forty years due to unbelievers present, or is the maturity in Christ, and the rest, something we can delay due to doubt. heaven cannot be delayed, but spiritual land of promises can be !

All of Israel would of thought it to be absurd that they would reach a place of literal perfection in this life.

This place was typified by Canaan.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I agree with this. I think you are misunderstanding what I believe. That whole post I put was a rebuttal to MB. I may be understanding Mr. Blume wrong, but I am taking it that he was suggesting we become perfect in our own actions after our new birth.

Mr. (lol) Blume was not saying that. I was saying IN CHRIST's empowerment by His Spirit we can overcome sinful activity. We may not arrive perfectly, but still more power than what we tap into is there for us.

In other words we become a walking image sinless perfection. We are made perfect by the works of Christ and through his eyes. It is an impossibility to never commit what is known as a sin again, but our sins are paid for at the cross. As Esaias said as well, sanctification is a daily thing. We must continually abide in Christ.

It is not impossible. It is just improbable.

[mfblume]

Where's Michael the Disciple. He agrees with me.

Rom 6:1....What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid...

Rom 6:7....For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Rom 6:12....Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Rom 6:14....For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Rom 8:1....There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Rom 8:11-12....But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. ..(12)....Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

Gal 5:16....This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

[good samaritan]

[QUOTE=mfblume;1444019]

It is a walk toward that more and more. Potentially we can all reach it. But this ingrained concept of HAVING TO FAIL needs correction. And that takes a lifetime

.

I am not suggesting we have to fail (willfully sin), but it is a fact the we fall along the way. Every time I have fallen I am not suggesting that I was without choice and was overcome. People will fall along the way and that is not a license or excuse. God will look inside the hearts of man and will know where we really stand with him.

Agreed, but it is there and we must not convince ourselves it's futile and never seek to walk after the Spirit. There are those who think this is an ideal. Like a carrot dangled in front of a horse by its rider, showing the horse a treat he can never reach. This is cruel. God does not do that.

I am not suggesting that it is futile to walk in the Spirit. If we do not walk in the Spirit we again be entangled in sin. I just don't agree in a literal perfect flesh own our own merits. Because of Abraham's faith righteousness was imputed to him not literal perfection in his own life. Abraham had some trouble with honesty himself when the stakes where high.

That is an exaggeration. Like I said we have forgiveness, but the fact remains the attainment is there. And the reason we think it so impossible is because we are still thinking in terns of OUR abilities and not his. We complicate it .

Lying is not an exaggeration, but it is a reality. This is one of the places where I see good people fall. The wrath of man, stubbornness, etc... are just a few places where people will fall. I am not looking to fall, but I understand the nature of the flesh. We are warned to flee temptation, Why? Potential failure. I read this morning in Sunday School "1 Cor. 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall." Paul warned of Israel's failures coming out of Egypt and it happening to us. He was not talking about sinless perfection, but instead Israel turning from God and going right back out in idolatry. A single mistake will not get us cast out, but being hard hearted, unrepentant, and stiff necked will.

I agree. But we will see more progress the more we let go of a fatalistic concept and realize there is more than what we've expected.

I prefer the term realistic.

[mfblume]

This reminds me. Where in the New Testament did they take Canaan and make it representative of Heaven? I know it's in the hymns and songs, but where in the Bible? I see it used to typify a place of rest where we cease from our works as God did from His.

Heb 3:14-4:9....For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; ..(15)....While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. ..(16)....For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses. ..(17)....But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? ..(18)....And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? ..(19)....So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief. ..(4:1)....Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. ..(2)....For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. ..(3)....For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. ..(4)....For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works. ..(5)....And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest. ..(6)....Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: ..(7)....Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts. ..(8)....For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. ..(9)....There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.