True or False: Grace is harder than Law

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

We stop walking and we sin.

i have felt convicted of this when some habit becomes too ingrained. ha.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We don't arrive to sinless perfection

David reflects this well; a man after God's heart, drawbacks and all. What is with God choosing the rejected?

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We don't arrive to sinless perfection or maybe I am still lost. Paul like any preacher taught and preached the mark (persay). Walking in the Spirit is the mark (persay), but there hasn't been a man alive to reach perfection aside from Christ no matter what positive thinking we have. Of course we are to walk in the Spirit, but can you name a man alive who has walked in the spirit and not in some point fulfilled the lust of the flesh. (BTW, chastity would be a must then because we marry because of the lust of the flesh.)

I am not advocating failure, but instead grace. No matter how many times a person falls they must get back up. When we walk in the Spirit we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, but the problem is that as long as we are human we are not going to always walk in the Spirit. I don't think the apostles did either by the scriptures which reveal their flaws.

Have you ever told a lie since coming to this revelation of divine empowerment. By this logic it would make you lost. I agree when we are where we should be in the Lord we are above reproach, but the problem is that we are not capable to do that 100% every second of our life.

That is what makes the grace of God necessary as long as we live. His grace keeps us from sin, and leads to repentence when we do sin. If people have to be living in divine empowerment to be saved (aka complete power from failure or sin) then I have not met a Christian yet. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

PS I am not an adulteror, fornicator, drunkard, theif, etc....., God has brought me out of those things therefore I do have authority over sin. But, I still have days where I have lost my temper and said something to my wife our children that I should not have. I have fudged on the truth since being fill with the Holy Ghost for expedience. These are not things I make excuses or even common practices, but they do wake me up to the fact that I still rely on God's grace.

The bolded parts are what I was talking about when I said people have misunderstood what sanctification is actually about. It is not a 'one stop ZAP experience' that means you CANNOT ever do anything wrong ever again. Cruise control Christianity, of whatever flavor, always results in failure.

I am willing to demonstrate, however, that Paul was entirely sanctified, and was not stumbling around 'failing'. Whether any man ever is truly sanctified has no bearing on whether or not the Bible teaches we can - and must - be. If you believe in free will, then you must admit it is POSSIBLE that NOBODY believed or believes the gospel, yet that would not make it false or a failure.

For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect? God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
(Romans 3:3-4 KJV)

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We don't arrive to sinless perfection or maybe I am still lost. Paul like any preacher taught and preached the mark (persay). Walking in the Spirit is the mark (persay), but there hasn't been a man alive to reach perfection aside from Christ no matter what positive thinking we have. Of course we are to walk in the Spirit, but can you name a man alive who has walked in the spirit and not in some point fulfilled the lust of the flesh. (BTW, chastity would be a must then because we marry because of the lust of the flesh.)

I am not advocating failure, but instead grace. No matter how many times a person falls they must get back up. When we walk in the Spirit we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, but the problem is that as long as we are human we are not going to always walk in the Spirit. I don't think the apostles did either by the scriptures which reveal their flaws.

Have you ever told a lie since coming to this revelation of divine empowerment. By this logic it would make you lost. I agree when we are where we should be in the Lord we are above reproach, but the problem is that we are not capable to do that 100% every second of our life.

That is what makes the grace of God necessary as long as we live. His grace keeps us from sin, and leads to repentence when we do sin. If people have to be living in divine empowerment to be saved (aka complete power from failure or sin) then I have not met a Christian yet. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

PS I am not an adulteror, fornicator, drunkard, theif, etc....., God has brought me out of those things therefore I do have authority over sin. But, I still have days where I have lost my temper and said something to my wife our children that I should not have. I have fudged on the truth since being fill with the Holy Ghost for expedience. These are not things I make excuses or even common practices, but they do wake me up to the fact that I still rely on God's grace.

Hey, bro. I hope what I'm about to write in response to the above, is edifying, and perhaps can help you see some things in a different light. If the Spirit bears witness with your spirit, then praise the Lord!

I think the thing we must remember, first of all, is that sin is like a debt, or a weight, and IT MUST BE IMPUTED. The same for righteousness (2 Corinthians 5:21)!

Blessed is the man to whom the LORD does not impute sin, right (Romans 4:7)?

So, here we are, in the New Covenant of grace. Christ has made atonement through His blood, and the Father is fully and completely propitiated. After all, God was in Christ, not imputing our trespasses against us.

What this means is, as long as we are walking in the Spirit, and not fulfilling the lusts of our flesh, we are considered righteous by God. What does this mean?

Righteous means to be considered totally, morally innocence. To be righteous is to be justified, and vice versa. The two, disparate English words both refer back to the same ONE word in Greek.

There is no condemnation to those who are in Christ. We aren't covenanted to God the Father by a yo-yo string. Up, down, up, down, righteous, unrighteous, saved, not saved.

Once we have been rescued by the Savior, and our sins have been remitted by the blood of the Lamb, they are fully and eternally carried away (Jeremiah 31:31-34, Micah 7:18-20). But guess what? Jesus died not only for the sins you committed pre-conversion, but also those sins you committed post-conversion. If not, then 1 John 1:9 cannot be applied, as the blood of Jesus can't cleanse us of any sins committed after first being saved.

So, what does this mean? When Jesus called out "Father, forgive them...", this intercession wasn't just for you while you were a sinner, it was also for you after you became a saint!

So guess what? If righteousness has been imparted to you by your faith in Jesus, and His merit, you are innocent before the Lord, of any and all charges the Accuser might try to cast at your feet.

So, your faith makes you whole. If you are righteous (by faith) you are perfect. Nothing needs to be added to you (the real idea behind Biblical perfection; from the Greek word teleos).

You can't be made more righteous. No extra justification can be given you. You aren't any more saved today than when you first believed.

The moment you came up out of the water, speaking in tongues, you were made perfect and complete. And blessed is the man to whom the LORD will not impute sins.

So, sinless perfection isn't about our actions alone, i.e. our attempts at not sinning. It's also about whether or not God has imputed sin to our account.

And if you are saved, and you are, then guess what? You are righteous before God, by your faith, and His grace, meaning no sins are being imputed to you, meaning you are already living a life of sinless perfection.

Is this a license then, to sin? God forbid. But what it is, is a license to realize you have been given mercy, and that grace is freely given. God isn't holding it back, waiting to see if you're going to fall or not.

He is a FATHER! My children always, always, always, have my unconditional love. They make many mistakes, they disobey, they act out, they fail, morally and otherwise, but none of that keeps them from my love, my affection, my grace, my forgiveness, or my status as their Father.

Sanctification is less about doing all the right things so you can maintain holiness in your life. Rather, sanctification is more about learning how you were already made holy the day God saved you, and that you are completely free to walk in the Spirit without interference from your flesh, so long as you keep trusting on the Lord, and WHAT HE DID, instead of yourself, and what you can do to add merit to yourself.

Even things like confession and repentance, while important and necessary, don't save us, or keep us saved. Rather, they are merely the conduits by which we can continue to walk in grace and mercy.

If none of our works of righteousness caused God to save us when He first did, how in the world should we expect any works of righteousness which we now attempt to maintain keep us saved?

The power is in God, and the Gospel of His Son.

Imagine a scenario:

Tomorrow, you are less than completely honest at work about something. You fib a bit, portraying the situation in a different, but not altogether, accurate light.

Later, while at home, as you pray, you feel the sting of conviction. You confess to God and say "Lord, I told a lie today. I'm sorry. Please forgive me."

While you may never hear God speak back to you in an audible way, you might very well imagine His response as being something like this:

"I know. I forgive you."

What am I trying to say? That while you were yet a sinner, Christ died for you. Being in Christ doesn't necessarily mean you won't ever sin. But being in Christ means sins are not imputed to you, so even if you do sin, you merely need to confess it to God, and in an instant, the debt and weight of that sin is gone forever.

The penalty was already paid. Isaiah 53, right? Unless and until God removes the imputed state of righteousness He gave you when He saved you, you are, even now, living a sinless life of perfection.

[votivesoul]

As an aside, as Paul wrote, "sin is not imputed where there is no law", even though sin was in the world before and then up to the giving of, the Law.

But later, in Romans 7, we are told we are dead to Law, that it has no hold over us, any more than a dead husband still binds a wife from remarrying.

So, since we are not under the Law, and indeed, that we are dead to the Law, functionally and essentially there is no Law, meaning sin is not imputed to us.

The only "law", as it were, that we follow and obey is the Royal Law of Love. And that, really, is more a product and fruit of the Spirit (against such there is no Law), than any other thing.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

We don't arrive to sinless perfection or maybe I am still lost.

Christ is our perfection. And we do not have to learn this to be saved. It is a journey to which we come after salvation. It is a matter of MATURITY in the Spirit.

Paul like any preacher taught and preached the mark (persay). Walking in the Spirit is the mark (persay), but there hasn't been a man alive to reach perfection aside from Christ no matter what positive thinking we have.

It is a walk toward that more and more. Potentially we can all reach it. But this ingrained concept of HAVING TO FAIL needs correction. And that takes a lifetime.

Of course we are to walk in the Spirit, but can you name a man alive who has walked in the spirit and not in some point fulfilled the lust of the flesh. (BTW, chastity would be a must then because we marry because of the lust of the flesh.)

We need to believe we can do this, though. Romans 6 is for that very thing, I believe.

I am not advocating failure, but instead grace. No matter how many times a person falls they must get back up. When we walk in the Spirit we don't fulfill the lust of the flesh, but the problem is that as long as we are human we are not going to always walk in the Spirit. I don't think the apostles did either by the scriptures which reveal their flaws.

Agreed, but it is there and we must not convince ourselves it's futile and never seek to walk after the Spirit. There are those who think this is an ideal. Like a carrot dangled in front of a horse by its rider, showing the horse a treat he can never reach. This is cruel. God does not do that.

Have you ever told a lie since coming to this revelation of divine empowerment. By this logic it would make you lost.

That is an exaggeration. Like I said we have forgiveness, but the fact remains the attainment is there. And the reason we think it so impossible is because we are still thinking in terns of OUR abilities and not his. We complicate it .

I agree when we are where we should be in the Lord we are above reproach, but the problem is that we are not capable to do that 100% every second of our life.

That is what makes the grace of God necessary as long as we live. His grace keeps us from sin, and leads to repentence when we do sin. If people have to be living in divine empowerment to be saved (aka complete power from failure or sin) then I have not met a Christian yet. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

PS I am not an adulteror, fornicator, drunkard, theif, etc....., God has brought me out of those things therefore I do have authority over sin. But, I still have days where I have lost my temper and said something to my wife our children that I should not have. I have fudged on the truth since being fill with the Holy Ghost for expedience. These are not things I make excuses or even common practices, but they do wake me up to the fact that I still rely on God's grace.

I agree. But we will see more progress the more we let go of a fatalistic concept and realize there is more than what we've expected.

[shazeep]

amen. i think that lies in more forgiveness, more reflecting that one is forgiven; and not some pursuit of perfectionism, and holding others to our ideas of that.

[mfblume]

The picture is that we have Christ's righteousness granted to us and imputed. But that can and is meant to work out into our behaviour. The behavioural part is the needful teaching we lack so much. Romans teaches teaches this STANDING we have in his righteousness. Chapter 6 takes it further and moves into the bahavioural issue.

I agree we need grace to see God forgive our shortfalls. But grace is more than that. It is divine empowerment, too. God told Paul his grace for Paul's thorn in the flesh was sufficient for God to not remove the thorn. Paul could TAKE IT by God's grace.

And if we agree we can walk in the Spirit, although we may fail occasionally, is it not better to learn all we can about this and see our progress increase, rather than cast it all aside for in futility because no one is perfect? Is grace merely sin and be forgiven, sin and be forgiven, sin and be forgiven?

I think we expect failure because we do n't get into the truths in Romans 6. We are dead to sin.

In fact I think it angers God.

I used the illustration of not entering Canaan due to doubt. The people looked at their own weaknesses and said they could not make it in. This enraged God. And Hebrews 3 ends off with that horrid example of their destruction due to unbelief. If God has provided strength for us to mature and overcome sinful activity more and more, albeit we always struggle with the flesh, and we cast this entire aspect of the cross aside, I think it doesn't sit well with God.

[mfblume]

Consider how chapter 5 moves into chapter 6.

We are told Adam's disobedience made us all sinners, not our own disobedience. And he said when Christ made us righteous, it did not level the playing field out as though Christ's positive work was equal to Adam's negative work. He said Christ's work was greater than Adam's work. Where sin abounded grace did MUCH MORE abound.

So then Paul asked a hypothetical question. Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? He raised the issue of continuing in sin. If there is no more victory than sinning and being forgiven, then that would be the scenario! Continue in sin that grace may abound! What else would it be? But there's a delicate balance of truth here. No, we should not just continue in sin. Paul blasts the reader's minds when he then writes, "How shall we that are dead to sin continue therein?"

What??? What did you just write, Paul? DEAD TO SIN?

Then after having shocked his readers to attention, he continues to explain how deadness to sin took place for us through our baptism into Christ's death.

This is all meant to rid us of that fatalistic idea that we can continue in sin to see grace abound. And it is talking about behaviour.

Let's not count heads as to who is succeeding or not. Let's realize this issue simply has hardly been touched in teaching through the churches. And let's get into it. Learn it. See its place in our lives. And let's progress! We may never fully succeed, but I strongly believe we will progress far more than where we currently are at if we endeavour to learn about this and implement it into our christianity.

And when we get our new bodies and sin is no longer resident in us, we will have fully learned how to take advantage of that newfound liberty, and watch what we can do then!

[mfblume]

I did not vote because the answers need elaboration. In one sense grace is harder and in another sense it is not. It is harder in the sense that no one can live it without the Spirit. But it is easier since the Spirit empowers us and law did not. And I know some who have a hard time with grace and others who don't.