My experience has been the opposite.
I know of churches who have replaced the "gospel" with social services and "serving".
Then the next step is to water down the doctrine until the next generation sees no difference between us and the rest of the denominations.
I have witnessed that in my own family.
The two need not be mutually exclusive, Jesus called us to preach the gospel to all creation and told us whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.
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Are you worried about what 2026 will bring?
I think it will bring flowers. why?
because i'm planting flowers 🌹
What made me decide to start this thread is that I was looking at a Pentecostal church website. The church has been there for many decades in a Southern town with a population of around 200,000 people. I know nothing about the church or the pastors who have pastored it. However in reading the church history they mentioned that when the current pastor came about 20 years ago the church doubled from 60 to 120 members in two years. Then it proceeded to say that currently the church runs 100-120 members. I thought to myself that it seems incredible this church in a decent sized city would see virtually no growth in 20 years. It made me wonder how that pastor, church, and other pentecostals look at church growth and how they measure their success in carrying out the great commission.
The church I grew up in is the oldest Oneness church in Iowa, the weekly Sunday morning service has typically never gone much above 100 (I believe 150 was the peak, but I could be mistaken), albeit the population of the town is only around 8-9,000. However, a great many daughter works have come out of it. People being taught in the church have then gone to other towns and started new works. Church growth isn't just based on the weekly regulars, but also what grows out of it in surrounding communities or even other works in the same city.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Originalist
Sometimes hidden dangers spring on us suddenly. Those are out of our control. But when one can see the danger, and then refuses to arrest , all in the name of "God is in control", they are forfeiting God given, preventive opportunities.
I am not going to call this a "problem" but it is something I have seen.
some church never gets over 150ish. starts out, hits some number and just flattens out.
pastor moves along, new guy comes in and poof numbers go way up.
you got a guy who may very well be a great church planter but not capapble of pastoring beyond a certain level. Some of these guys can flat out get the thing going, have everything in place, but their gift, their ministry isn't to pastor. its to plant.
Understanding ones calling is as vital as anything.
__________________ If I do something stupid blame the Lortab!
I have wondered about this for a long time. But I have no answers.
A church goes through seasons of birth growth and decline. Where a church is in that process is far more important than last Sundays attendance number.
How many seasons are there for a church ? What impact is there on a change of pastors ?
Some churches that have a pastor for a very long time, decades, do not do well after that pastors leaves. Are churches better off if there are shorter pastorates ? Not sure.
Society also changes. If the group loyalty of the baby boomers does not describe the generations after them, how does that affect churches ? There is a certain level of civic mindedness of those baby boomers and those before them that do not characterize generations after the baby boomers.
I suppose there are other factors about church growth and health that I am not aware of.
My experience has been the opposite.
I know of churches who have replaced the "gospel" with social services and "serving".
Then the next step is to water down the doctrine until the next generation sees no difference between us and the rest of the denominations.
I have witnessed that in my own family.
Excellent post, and so very true. Swing too far in any direction, things will go wrong. There has to be a balance. Great observation.
While I was contemplating this over lunch, I remembered something. I remember reading an article a few years a go and I can't find the link. I'll try to convey what the article broke down.
The notion was that leadership effectiveness is limited by the numbers. I remember the example being monkeys. Let's say you just love monkeys. So you buy a monkey. You love that monkey. He's almost like your best little friend. You adore him, he adores you. Then, you find a lost little monkey. Since you love monkeys, you take in the second monkey and now you and the monkey have grown to love one another. In addition, the two monkeys are best buds and adore one another. Then one day your friend gives you a monkey because they are moving to a place that doesn't allow monkeys. Now you have three monkeys, and all three of you are doing quite well. But as the days roll by for one reason or another... you keep acquiring more and more monkeys. You eventually have 10 monkeys, then 20. Then you find yourself with 40 monkeys and then 80. Eventually you get to the point wherein you cannot actually provide the emotional investment in every monkey that is necessary for happiness. Also, the limited time you get with each monkey only causes each monkey to feel less and less emotionally attached to you. You no longer have any best buds, now you have little mouths screaming for food, only to smile and run off to play with other monkeys after you've fed them. To make matters worse, some monkeys find it funny to throw poo at you when you least expect it.
I remember the article mentioning psychological dynamics that cause the average human being to only be able to forge around 120 true relationships at any given time. And at 120 relationships, each relationship is rather strained and isn't as deep as the original few, but they are sincere. At about 120, additional human relationships begin to replace one of the 120 in value or they remain relatively... unimportant... on a subconscious level.
For example: You might start a church group with 10 people. It is exciting, intimate, edifying, loving, and almost like a family. As more and more people come into the mix the dynamic changes and soon you have 120 or more and it is more like a social club. At any given point in time... only 120 feel close to you. And at 120 you are less likely to extend the necessary emotion or care you extend to the original 120. Or number 121 demands so much additional care, one or more of the original 120 will suddenly feel as though they mean significantly less to you. Now, people are leaving out the back door as more people come in through the front door. Eventually you see 20 new faces... but only 100 of the original 120 faces. And the number is still only 120! You try harder to win more people... only turn around and see 50 new faces... but only 70 of the original 120 faces. And you're still at around 120!
Now the actual number might differ from leader to leader, but once the limit is reached, the dynamic is still the same.
What is a leader to do???? One of the wisest bits of advice in the Bible came from Jethro. He advised Moses concerning how to lead the people....
Exodus 18:13-27 (ESV)
13 The next day Moses sat to judge the people, and the people stood around Moses from morning till evening. 14 When Moses' father-in-law saw all that he was doing for the people, he said, “What is this that you are doing for the people? Why do you sit alone, and all the people stand around you from morning till evening?” 15 And Moses said to his father-in-law, “Because the people come to me to inquire of God; 16 when they have a dispute, they come to me and I decide between one person and another, and I make them know the statutes of God and his laws.” 17 Moses' father-in-law said to him, “What you are doing is not good. 18 You and the people with you will certainly wear yourselves out, for the thing is too heavy for you. You are not able to do it alone. 19 Now obey my voice; I will give you advice, and God be with you! You shall represent the people before God and bring their cases to God, 20 and you shall warn them about the statutes and the laws, and make them know the way in which they must walk and what they must do. 21 Moreover, look for able men from all the people, men who fear God, who are trustworthy and hate a bribe, and place such men over the people as chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. 22 And let them judge the people at all times. Every great matter they shall bring to you, but any small matter they shall decide themselves. So it will be easier for you, and they will bear the burden with you. 23 If you do this, God will direct you, you will be able to endure, and all this people also will go to their place in peace.”
24 So Moses listened to the voice of his father-in-law and did all that he had said. 25 Moses chose able men out of all Israel and made them heads over the people, chiefs of thousands, of hundreds, of fifties, and of tens. 26 And they judged the people at all times. Any hard case they brought to Moses, but any small matter they decided themselves. 27 Then Moses let his father-in-law depart, and he went away to his own country.
To better meet the emotional and psychological needs of people, leaders often need to delegate. Moses delegated duties down to trustworthy dedicated leaders. This helped better meet the needs of the people.
Now, let's say that a pastor has 120 to 200 people. According to the article I read he's going to at least need an additional leader to help with meeting the people's needs. However, if the additional leader only connects with the same 120 or so individuals as the senior pastor... the remaining 80 still stand a chance of drifting away.
What to do? What to do?
Small group ministries.
Jesus directly ministered to only 12 disciples. And even within the twelve, Jesus had an inner circle of Peter, James, and John (consider these best buds).
Now, imagine if there were 120 in a single congregation under pastor and 12 elders. The pastor could teach and minister on the day that the entire group gathered together. However, during the week, 12 groups of 10 individuals could meet in a small group, each sitting under one of the 12 elders. The pastor could then rotate through by visiting one group each week as the special guest. This way each group never grows so large they lose a sense of closeness and intimacy. Also, each group gets a chance to have more participative 1 on 1 time with the pastor. Each elder could be responsible for Bible study/teaching and the ordinances of the church (baptism and Lord's Supper). They can also provide mentoring, but all serious counsel could be referred to the pastor. And, on a given evening each week (or once or twice a month) the pastor could meet with the 12 elders and provide a leadership focused study...like what we see with Jesus and the disciples.
Now, that establishes the network, intimacy, and closeness that keeps the fabric of the present congregation strong. But how can this body grow?
Traditional logic says, well, have everyone reach someone and bring them in! That's the mission. Under each elder is around 10 people. Let's say that each group grows by 1 extra within a six month period. That's 12 people. Guess what? Appoint another elder, he has a group ready. In essence, any group exceeding 12 people should be a strong indicator that an elder needs to be appointed over a new group. Essentially a congregation of 1000 people could meet to hear the pastor teach on Sundays... but be meeting in 100 different groups of ten throughout the city during the week.
A local house church network was set up much like this in Dayton, Ohio. The church had around 1,300 people who would meet on the main campus (a massive and beautiful church facility) every Sunday. But during the week, individuals were encouraged to attend any one of 78 house churches. You might say, "What about the remaining estimated 364?" Well, not everyone committed to a house church. Some only attended on Sundays at the main campus. And that's fine. But they were encouraged quite often to link-up with a house church. The pastor would often say, "Listen to me, if you want t truly feel connected and be blessed, I can only encourage you to join a house church. That's where the ministry really takes place."
Now, they're Baptist. But I don't see why an Apostolic church couldn't build a sense of intimate community, multiply, and grow the same way.
Here's a link to this house church network that has truly blessed me and opened my eyes to what can be done through house churching. I have visited and still tend to visit several different house churches within their network. They are a great bunch of people and they really love Jesus. Yes, I think they need to be shown more light. But I've seen God move among them in spite of any doctrinal differences we might have with them. Here's their link:
Also, here's a video about this network: (This video was filed three blocks from my house, and the church building in the beginning is not their church building, it is a Methodist church where the Quaker group I like to gather with holds their meetings! LOL):
I just realized, that I mentioned "house church". Please understand, my intention isn't about house church vs. traditional church. I was just trying to share how small group ministry can actually facilitate the intimacy and closeness can facilitates growth.
As long as one person, or family, clings to authority... the church faces a significant hurdle to growth. Not because they are bad people for doing so. But because they can't facilitate the growth they desire to see. They need appointed elders and a vision that values small group ministry.
Rather they be called "house churches", "care groups", "friendship groups", or "home Bible studies", small groups are essential to growth and building more intimate bonds between believers. This helps increase a retention that facilitates.... growth.
Now, in our eyes a "house church" is unique because each elder or head of household where believers gather administers water baptism and the Lord's Supper for the home based group. Also, most Christian discipline takes place at the house church level. Also, in our network, the local house church is an autonomous body that can set certain standards for itself as they search the Scriptures. So, within the network, you might see a wide variety of opinions or Scriptural applications in non-essential matters. The matters that an Apostolic house church network might chose not compromise on, points that define them, could be:
-Oneness of God
-Acts 2:38 salvation
-Priesthood of all believers
-The church being a body of people, not a building or organization
-A financial plan of steward ship (giving or tithing)
Beyond these things, a certain flexibility can be allowed for each house church and they still remain in the network. Yes, there will be some house churches more conservative or liberal on some issues than others. But that allows a variety of options for the seeker to find a spiritual home within the body. The primary vision of maintaining a love for God and others cannot be overemphasized.
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