Question on Romans 12:20 - Page 2

houston · #11 11-28-2017, 11:46 PM

NLT is a paraphrase.

Pressing-On · #12 11-29-2017, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

NLT is a paraphrase.

Right, it is a Dynamic Equivalence, and great care should be taken in choosing that type of translation. Some convey the message very well, and others take a great deal of liberty.

In my original post, I lined out how some thought that it was a “clever” use to refer to “coals of fire” as relating to an eastern practice of carrying things on one’s head. If someone’s fire went out, a friend or neighbor would give him coals to relight his fire, heaping them in a pan on his head, i.e., feeding an enemy is like giving him coals for his fire.

But, really, that shouldn't be discounted as it does convey the kindness that God expects from us in Romans 2:19-20, IMO.

Praxeas · #13 12-01-2017, 01:10 AM

25.199 σωρεύω ἄνθρακας πυρὸς ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλήν: (an idiom, literally ‘to heap coals of fire on the head,’ but the historical background of this idiom is not known, and hence to some extent the meaning is uncertain) to treat someone in such a positive manner as to cause that person to be ashamed or embarrassed—‘to cause to be ashamed, to make ashamed.’ ἀλλὰ ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου, ψώμιζε αὐτόν· ἐὰν διψᾷ, πότιζε αὐτόν· τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ ‘but if your enemy is hungry, give him something to eat; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for in doing this, you will make him ashamed’ Ro 12:20.

Pressing-On · #14 12-01-2017, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

25.199 σωρεύω ἄνθρακας πυρὸς ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλήν: (an idiom, literally ‘to heap coals of fire on the head,’ but the historical background of this idiom is not known, and hence to some extent the meaning is uncertain) to treat someone in such a positive manner as to cause that person to be ashamed or embarrassed—‘to cause to be ashamed, to make ashamed.’ ἀλλὰ ἐὰν πεινᾷ ὁ ἐχθρός σου, ψώμιζε αὐτόν· ἐὰν διψᾷ, πότιζε αὐτόν· τοῦτο γὰρ ποιῶν ἄνθρακας πυρὸς σωρεύσεις ἐπὶ τὴν κεφαλὴν αὐτοῦ ‘but if your enemy is hungry, give him something to eat; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink; for in doing this, you will make him ashamed’ Ro 12:20.

When I read something like this, I am thinking - the writer says that the explanation for "coals of fire" is not known, yet they proceed to explain the verse. If it is not known, how can they explain the passage?

I lean more to this view:

"...without carrying out the figure into any idea of the effect upon your enemy, whether for good or for evil, of your conduct: your natural desire is to be avenged, let this ‘feeding him’ and ‘giving him drink’ be the effective form of vengeance which you adopt. And as an incentive remember that in doing him good you will bring a blessing upon yourself: “the Lord shall reward thee.” The proverb thus belongs by anticipation to the highest sphere of moral teaching, Matthew 5:44" Cambridge

Pressing-On · #15 12-01-2017, 06:46 AM

A couple of references on Coals of Fire:

Leviticus 16:12 suggests an explanation. The high priest on the Day of Atonement was to take his censer, to fill it with "coals of fire," and then to put the incense thereon for a sweet-smelling savor. - Barnes

Verse 22. - For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. This expression has been taken in various senses. It has been thought to mean that the forgiveness of the injured person brings to the cheek of the offender the burning blush of shame. But heaping coals on the head cannot naturally be taken to express such an idea. - Pulpit Commentary

TGBTG · #16 12-01-2017, 07:01 AM

PO,
I'm curious as to what your end goal here is. I've never seen Rom 12:20 to be a "difficult" scripture so to speak. I see it as no different to Matt 5:44 "Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you..."

Pressing-On · #17 12-01-2017, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

PO,
I'm curious as to what your end goal here is. I've never seen Rom 12:20 to be a "difficult" scripture so to speak. I see it as no different to Matt 5:44 "Love your enemies, do good to those who persecute you..."

My interest was peaked when I saw that only one translation added in the word "shame" to the verse. It speaks to me of an ulterior motive. Matthew 5:44 does not.

I was recently in a conversation concerning this scripture passage and the agreement was that we had heard Romans 12 come across in both a negative and positive sense.

IMO, if you teach that you are going to bring a person to shame for what they have done to you by being kind, you certainly need to be careful to teach that it is not our motive.

Esaias says this -

Quote:

Many think that this means we will cause them to be embarrassed for their ill treatment of us when they see our benevolence towards them. Although that sometimes does happen, it is not the usual response, as both the Bible, history, and our personal experiences can well attest. Rather, it is saying by our doing good to others, loving our neighbour as ourselves, even those who have become our personal enemies by trespassing against us, we acquit ourselves of wrong doing, and provide the necessary authorising for God's vengeance to remedy injustice on our behalf.

I can, pretty well, agree with this.

My main point is that by putting the word "shame" in the verse, which other translations don't do, it takes our thoughts, IMO, into a position of revenge. In the world we are living now, that seems to be what is on the plate and so that makes me feel uncomfortable.

houston · #18 12-01-2017, 10:39 AM

Isn’t that what people feel, though. When offending or doing something against someone and they bless you... I know, I know. Y’all are saints.

Jito463 · #19 12-01-2017, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by houston

I know, I know. Y’all are saints.

It's not about what we are now, it's about what we should aspire to. The Bible teaches us about the perfecting of the saints. This is part of it and what we should be endeavoring for.

Pressing-On · #20 12-01-2017, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jito463

It's not about what we are now, it's about what we should aspire to. The Bible teaches us about the perfecting of the saints. This is part of it and what we should be endeavoring for.

You are saying that the job of the "body" of Christ is to endeavor to produce shame in a person in order to perfect them?

Isn't that reference only used once and directed to those in leadership? Eph 4:11-12 "And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"